Super Tech 5w-30 - 12,764 - 1999 Honda Odyssey 3.5

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This the conventional super tech oil. My dad forgot to change the oil or even check it so when the sample was taken only about 2.3 quarts remained which is half the capacity. Would the low oil mean the wear metals aren't as high as they seem because they are more concentrated?
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Wow, that really is not bad considering how long it was run! Would be curious about tbn but i'm sure it was done.
 
Impressive result. The oil didn't even thicken up. Back in the days of SL oils my corolla would thicken 5W30 oil into 40 range in just 5000 miles.

Of course the higher wear is due to low oil level.
Once I kept oil level at low for entire OCI (silly experiment) and I saw 3-5x more metal on magnet. I got oil consumption too.
 
Honestly, that's amazing given the mileage AND the fact it was run low.

And yes, I think you're correct in saying that if the sump had been full you'd see less wear metals. The only real problem I see is 0.7% insolubles. One of the highest I've seen here I think.

Was this Supertech dino or synthetic?
 
I would really consider doing a short (2k or so) OCI and flushing. This would get rid of some of the junk that was flowing through this engine, that insol % was high. Just a suggestion.
 
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Originally Posted By: chubbs1
I would really consider doing a short (2k or so) OCI and flushing. This would get rid of some of the junk that was flowing through this engine, that insol % was high. Just a suggestion.

I agree.

I would do 1k OCI for this change then do 3k OCI on the next change, after the second short OCI I will go back to normal OCI.
 
If your gonna go that distance on oil, run a better oil and change filters halfway through. Maybe a filter magnet for that iron.
 
That is outstanding considering it's dino oil and run for 2x the "univeral average" and it was essentially at 50% capacity towards the end of the OCI.

In "normal" circumstances, I would expect this fluid to be equal to many other name-brand products. And, before anyone starts to bash ST here, consider how well (or poorly) any competing brand name might have done with this OCI duration at 50% sump capacity ...

In essence, if you were to have added the needed oil along the way, it would have probably reduced the loading on the oil. And, if it were at full capacity at sample time, it's reasonable to estimate the metals at 1/2 their current reading. You would be essentially diluting the sample by 100%, by doubling the presence of oil, changing the ppm ratio.

This is obviously not the "preferred" maintenance plan. But I give creedence to ST here; given the operational conditions, I think it MORE than surpassed any reasonable expectation!

I don't think any of us would make a habit of this maintenance plan, but I also don't think the engine was irreparably harmed. Just keep a better eye on it. If ST can do this well under these conditions, it will more than protect adequately under "normal" use.

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And here's a little sideline note to ponder:
Is this a desirable UOA? No - I don't think any of us would target this kind of OCI plan. But ...
It kind of puts the whole anal-retentive "Must use synthetic at 5k mile OCI intervals for the engine to last" mind-set in perspective, don't you think? If house brand dino oil can protect this well under these extreme circumstances, just how "necessary" is synthetic for typical use? (I am excluding those people who truly do fully-extended OCIs with synthetic, and poking the nose of those who dabble in synthetics and profess they are "better" somehow for daily use ...). How often do we see UOAs with synthetics where someone did the OCI/UOA cycle at 5k or 6k miles? This UOA proves how capable convenional oils are under extreme stress. And it shows what a waste synthetics are in "normal" use.

We often hear that "synthetic is cheap insurance" as a justification for it's use in normal OCIs. OK - perhaps so, but this is proof that there is a LOT more capability in a dino oil, under clearly undesirable operating conditions, than people would give credit for.

I'm making a distinction here. We all know these are not desirable operating conditions. What I am saying is that for an OCI at 2x the data average, with only 50% capacity near the end, this conventional oil did really well for the task it was put through.

If you never let your equipment to get into this bad of a circumstance (and by definition any anal-retentive BITOGer simply won't), they how much does one really "need" any synthetic?

Would synthetic have done "better" under these same conditions? I'd have to admit I would expect some advantage to show up along the way. But that is not my point; my point is this:
If the dino oil can protect this well under terrible circumstances, but you never let your equipment get into this condition, they why would one ever need synthetics in a normal OCI?


Food for thought.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
...And it shows what a waste synthetics are in "normal" use.
If you never let your equipment to get into this bad of a circumstance (and by definition any anal-retentive BITOGer simply won't), they how much does one really "need" any synthetic?

Maybe this sample will change some people's mind about running synthetic for only 6,000 miles.

I'm not going to lie, I freaked out when I saw the dry dip stick. An oil life monitor would have helped here.
 
Originally Posted By: TylerL

I'm not going to lie, I freaked out when I saw the dry dip stick. An oil life monitor would have helped here.


You had the only thing to save you, the red oil light on the dash.
 
There is a thread in the oil additives setion about problems caused in Honda 3.5 engines from conventional oils run too long causing severe varnishing.

The varnishing then causes engine problems....I'm not sure I'd want to see the inside of this engine.....good luck!
 
Originally Posted By: addyguy
There is a thread in the oil additives setion about problems caused in Honda 3.5 engines from conventional oils run too long causing severe varnishing.

The varnishing then causes engine problems....I'm not sure I'd want to see the inside of this engine.....good luck!

It's something with the vtec system that is effected I believe. You can sludge these engines up by doing short trips even with synthetic. I'm thinking about Kreening this engine when I get some. We've had it since new and my parents plan on keeping it a few more years.
 
I also wonder if that supertech was sn rated. Having to meet sn might explain why it did well. I know supertech is sn now but was it a year ago?
 
If sludge and varnish are a concern perhaps pull a valve cover and look it over. That would be a nice picture to include as well.
 
nice to see a serious UOA where the fluid was actually stressed, clearly demonstrates dino's superior value.
 
Originally Posted By: TylerL
Originally Posted By: addyguy
There is a thread in the oil additives setion about problems caused in Honda 3.5 engines from conventional oils run too long causing severe varnishing . . .

It's something with the vtec system that is effected I believe. (Emphasis added.) You can sludge these engines up by doing short trips even with synthetic. . . .


jfi, it's the VCM (variable cylinder management) system that may be the source of varnish in the V-6s, not vtec. The latter controls valve timing.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
If you never let your equipment to get into this bad of a circumstance (and by definition any anal-retentive BITOGer simply won't), they how much does one really "need" any synthetic?

Would synthetic have done "better" under these same conditions? I'd have to admit I would expect some advantage to show up along the way. But that is not my point; my point is this:
If the dino oil can protect this well under terrible circumstances, but you never let your equipment get into this condition, they why would one ever need synthetics in a normal OCI?

Food for thought.

Yes it is.

Most of us (dare I say all?) do not know the threshold at which our particular engines, filled with a certain oil and run under our own unique operating conditions will suffer damage or pre-damage (varnish, sludge) due to excessive OCI. We are trying to treat our equipment well (I.e., prevent damage and premature wear) while extracting "value" with thoughtful maintenance choices including product type and brand along with refreshment intervals.

I don't disagree with what I think your basic premise is: modern day oils provide good margin of safety in street use. This begs the question, 'How much of that margin (if any) should we attempt to use up in order to extract additional value?'

One's personal concept of "value" adds another important variable to the several variables identified above. For most, value may mean 'cost per mile' while others may measure value in peace-of-mind garnered by choices of product and interval that exceed specification and add margin of safety. So, it is clearly a very subjective subject.

However, we do know certain truths about oil and oil change intervals:

1. Synthetics are superior to conventionals in any number of performance characteristics. IIRC, it was Mobil that stated unequivicably that synthetic oil is superior to conventional in any application or operating condition. I believe them.
2. in addition to oil life as measured by TBN for example, there are other considerations such as momentary severe peaks in operating conditions, cold weather starts and contamination from all sorts of evil things like metal particulates, oxidation and fuel just to name three. Some here do not weigh contamination heavily in their decision making and of course it's impossible to prove it's effects but I cling to the perhaps antiquated view that fresh oil has to be better than dirty oil in all of our engines.
3. Conventional oils have a long history of satisfactory performance in most engines when manufacturers' recommendations are followed.

So, when should one consider moving from a satisfactory product to a superior product? We've all made this decision based on our personal evaluations of these many variables to reach our own conclusions and comfort levels. There is no single answer to your question but rather a complex equation that we each must answer to our own (and no one else's) satisfaction.
 
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