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#263207 - 01/20/03 04:43 AM Best Dry Gas?
S2000driver Offline


Registered: 01/18/03
Posts: 401
Loc: Southcentral PA
To isopropyl or not, that is the question [Wink]

What's the best brand?

Is once a year (say, every November) often enough for a newish car?

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#263208 - 01/21/03 12:46 AM Re: Best Dry Gas?
darrenc Offline


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 378
Loc: West Coast
Why not just use some Neutra?

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#263209 - 01/21/03 01:00 AM Re: Best Dry Gas?
Patman Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 19281
Loc: Oakville, Ontario
I've been afraid to use isopropyl alcohol as dry gas ever since I had my 94 Grand Am GT. That car developed a hesitation which later was attributed to the addition of this stuff which would mess up my plugs.

Ever since then I didn't add anything to my fuel in the winter, I would just keep the tank as close to full as I could, topping it up every 2-3 days.

I just recently started using Neutra in the fuel, and I understand it does a good job as a dry gas too.

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#263210 - 01/21/03 05:48 AM Re: Best Dry Gas?
Rick in PA Offline


Registered: 01/04/03
Posts: 2131
Loc: Southeastern, PA
I use to add a can of drygas in the fall and maybe again in mid-winter, but I've re-thought this. Modern cars have such tight fuel systems that I suspect that condensation in the fuel tank is not the problem it use to be.

A few years ago, my wifes car fouled a set of plugs. A mechanic I trust suggested using a can of injector cleaner once a year to prevent this.

So, I've changed my habits, no more drygas but I do add a can of injector cleaner in the fall.

Just my two cents. [Smile]

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#263211 - 01/21/03 03:48 PM Re: Best Dry Gas?
S2000driver Offline


Registered: 01/18/03
Posts: 401
Loc: Southcentral PA
Thanks

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#263212 - 01/22/03 08:11 AM Re: Best Dry Gas?
Bror Jace Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 4864
Loc: Saratoga, NY
I use a lot more of this stuff (isopropyl alcohol) than probably anyone here. In the winter, I use 1 bottle per month and in the summer about 1/3 to 1/2 of a bottle per month. Been doing this for the last 10+ years. Probably 6-8 bottles per year along with a bottle or two of Red Line and or 10-20 ounces of Neutra. Because the Neutra is so much more economical, I’m using more and more of it and haven’t bought the Red Line stuff in a while.

I can’t see how alcohol, which burns very cleanly, could foul a spark plug or some other sensor ... unless it is reacting with other compounds in the fuel. Perhaps causing another additive to precipitate out? [Confused] Anyway, my O2 sensor was still fine at 120,000 miles so I can’t imagine I’m doing anything harmful by using this stuff. I figure O2 sensors make good “canaries” in this regard.

If Neutra 131 is an ester (water soluble) as others have suggested on this board, then it should remove at least some of any accumulated moisture. Same with Red Line Complete Fuel System cleaner.

About 6 months ago, my father’s girlfriend’s Honda Prelude developed a nasty hesitation at 4 years old and just over 40,000 miles on the odo. 1 bottle of isopropyl alcohol and Red Line fuel system cleaner and the hesitation cleared up ... and I’m talking within 10 miles. [Big Grin] I suggested she have her fuel filter changed (not in the Honda maintenance schedule for that car) and she traded the car in. [Roll Eyes]

Rick, I don’t see new fuel systems being “tighter” would affect moisture accumulation. Air has to be let into the tank to replace the fuel as it is consumed (or it would create a vacuum) and that air will bring with it moisture … which can accumulate over time. I’m pretty sure control of newer fuel systems is mostly limited to minimizing escaping vapors for emissions (non-tailpipe) and environmental purposes.

--- Bror Jace

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#263213 - 01/21/03 09:03 PM Re: Best Dry Gas?
Rick in PA Offline


Registered: 01/04/03
Posts: 2131
Loc: Southeastern, PA
I hope I didn't confuse with my post, the fouled plugs was unrelated to the drygas. The plugs just fouled because the injectors were gunked-up.

Older gas tanks had vented caps, there literally was a small hole in the gas cap to allow equalization of pressure. This means that as the temperature decreased in the evening, air (carrying moisture with it) would be drawn into the fuel tank. As the tank cooled through the night, the moisture in the air would condense as liquid water (imagine the inside of the fuel tank "sweating"). In the morning and through the day, the temperature would increase, the air in the fuel tank would expand slightly, leaving the fuel tank ready to take in more air in the evening. Thus a cycle where the fuel tank "breaths" and moisture accumulates within it.

Modern fuel tanks are sealed to a higher degree than older fuel tanks. While I don't fully understand the specifics, they are not vented as in years ago. The modern fuel tank typically has mechanisims to hold a slight (and controlled)negative pressure during operation and to seal the tank during periods on non-operation. The primary reason for these design changes is to reduce unburned hydrocarbon emissions but I suspect a side benefit in that it helps to reduce condensation inside the tank due to the "breathing".

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#263214 - 01/21/03 09:32 PM Re: Best Dry Gas?
Patman Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 19281
Loc: Oakville, Ontario
Bror, it's possible I simply used too much of it. I was adding a full 150ml bottle of isopropyl alcohol to each tankful.

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#263215 - 01/21/03 09:42 PM Re: Best Dry Gas?
2533a Offline


Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 183
Loc: Northern New Hampshire
One bottle with EVERY fillup in the winter months (November - April up here). One bottle per month in the other months (including July when we get our two weeks of summer). No driveability problems with this level of usage.

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#263216 - 01/22/03 12:29 AM Re: Best Dry Gas?
Bror Jace Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 4864
Loc: Saratoga, NY
"I was adding a full 150ml bottle of isopropyl alcohol to each tankful."

Oh crap, Now I gotta do metric-to-ounce conversions? Bottles in this neck of the woods are typically 12oz. Where's that table ... [Confused]

"One bottle with EVERY fill-up in the winter months."

OK, I've been put in my place. I hereby renounce my claim to the isopropyl throne. All hail King 2533a!! [bowdown]

Long live the King's fuel system! [HAIL 2 U!]

--- Bror Jace

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#263217 - 01/22/03 01:16 AM Re: Best Dry Gas?
2533a Offline


Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 183
Loc: Northern New Hampshire
quote:
Originally posted by Bror Jace:
"I was adding a full 150ml bottle of isopropyl alcohol to each tankful."

Oh crap, Now I gotta do metric-to-ounce conversions? Bottles in this neck of the woods are typically 12oz. Where's that table ... [Confused]

"One bottle with EVERY fill-up in the winter months."

OK, I've been put in my place. I hereby renounce my claim to the isopropyl throne. All hail King 2533a!! [bowdown]

Long live the King's fuel system! [HAIL 2 U!]

--- Bror Jace

Knock on wood (banging head on desk [Big Grin] ) no geysers in my fuel system from distintegrating seals! Besides, isn't it alcohol of the methyl variety that chews on seals?

[ January 22, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: 2533a ]

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#263218 - 01/22/03 04:16 AM Re: Best Dry Gas?
Patman Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 19281
Loc: Oakville, Ontario
Bror, 150ml is about 5oz.

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#263219 - 01/22/03 05:17 AM Re: Best Dry Gas?
Bror Jace Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 4864
Loc: Saratoga, NY
Patman, thanks for the quickie conversion. The only one I can do in my head is temperature ... and that's because of Bob & Doug McKenzie:

Going from Celsius to Fahrenheit, you double it and add thirty. It gets you within 1-2 degrees for most common temps.

[Big Grin]

Yes, King Iso, it's your evil brother methyl alcohol/methanol which is the more corrosive of the tribe ... and I think Molakule said something about that stuff not being the problem it once was.

Maybe do a search on "methanol":? [Confused]

--- Bror Jace

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#263220 - 02/02/03 06:24 AM Re: Best Dry Gas?
S2000driver Offline


Registered: 01/18/03
Posts: 401
Loc: Southcentral PA
I'm not going to use dry gas anymore. I don't expect anything bad to happen, even if a little bit of moisture floats around the bottom of my tank. It's not going anywhere, is it?

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#263221 - 02/02/03 07:45 AM Re: Best Dry Gas?
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46632
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Do you guys get that much condensation in your gas tanks?

I have never used dry gas/alcohol type cosolvents. It is VERY wet where I live and we can see some interesting temperature excursions - ie possibility for condensation. Yet to my knowledge I haven't had any moisture issues.

One thing I can speculate on is - maybe sometimes it's best NOT to put alcohol in, when you know for sure you have a water issue - best to drain completely, dry and refill. Because if you "soluabilize" the water in the gas it may make things worse...just my .02$

I do use the Amsoil Gas Stabilizer in my Toyota truck (and some other engines) and try to keep the tank full of fuel because the truck sits so much.

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