PYB 5w30, K&N HP-1003, '03 Pontiac Vibe, 6,905mi

[earlyre]

1st ever UOA for me, or this car. it belongs to a buddy of mine, who is a pizza delivery driver.

Code:


MI/HR on Oil 6,905

MI/HR on Unit 148,751

Sample Date 03/25/12

Make Up Oil n/a

ALUMINUM 1

CHROMIUM 0

IRON 8

COPPER 1

LEAD 0

TIN 0

MOLYBDENUM 252

NICKEL 0

MANGANESE 1

SILVER 0

TITANIUM 0

POTASSIUM 4

BORON 19

SILICON 29

SODIUM 82

CALCIUM 2595

MAGNESIUM 11

PHOSPHORUS 786

ZINC 931

BARIUM 0

Values Should Be*

SUS Viscosity @ 210°F 54.8 55-62

cSt Viscosity @ 100°C 8.70 8.8-11.1

Flashpoint in °F 400 >365

Fuel % 0.5
Antifreeze % ? 0.0

Water % 0.0 0.0

Insolubles % 0.4


Comments:
RUSSELL: Ryan's Vibe is looking pretty good in this first report, at least as far as wear metals are
concerned. Universal averages show typical wear for a 1ZZ-FE engine after ~5,500 miles of oil use, and
Ryan's wear looks good even on a longer oil run. The only issues were high levels of silicon and sodium.
Silicon might show dirt, so check the air filter, and sodium could be coolant, although it could be residual
from a different type of oil used previously. The low viscosity isn't a problem. Since wear looks good, just
monitor for now; if it's not losing coolant, try 8K miles on the next oil.

(it is loosing coolant somewhere, oil didn't look milky at all, has a K&N Drop in lifetime air filter which could explain the silicon)

 

[2James1]

Have your friend try a quality paper filter for an oci and see if there is any improvement. Wix seems to have great quality and fitment. Buy mine at carquest.

 

[earlyre]

 

[KCJeep]

Great report, and thanks for posting PYB I get so sick of all the full syns redundantly on here.

 

[addyguy]

That is unreal - 7k on regular dino, and barely any wear.

Even the relatively high Si has not had an effect.

 

[cutter]

Yay, 1zz and pyb.

 

[dnewton3]

Very nice report.

No reason to fear the long OCI or using dino; clearly wear is under control.

Perhaps try to eliminate the source of the Si; try a "normal" cellulose media filter and make sure the intake tract is sealed up.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Good points.

I think getting a UOA on this report would be nice to see what it's current retention is like in the OP's engine.

I mean, if a conventional w/ TBN lasts 7,000 miles in your app, then you could probably give about a 20% cushion if using a full synthetic oil that is of an extended drain performance; especially with regards to TBN retention without doubting it's retention compared to a good conventional that can make a certain mileage repeatably.

Of course, as always if service conditions become more 'severe' or 'extreme' monitor for changes, another reason to analyze TBN.

It has interest to me, that if I'm performing extended UOAs, to track TAN(relative to VOA of any particular oil) to see a contrast in retention/depletion vs. the rise of that number. Once you get a feel what what an oil is contributing virgin, you can get a 'good idea' of how much actual harmful acidic elements are present for the base stock to neutralize.

When that is done successfully you 'could' gain more of an upper hand in stating definitively on a per app basis, that extending the interval; up to that point anyway, is not leading to an inherently more acidic environment over time and causing TBN retention to be more challenged/harder to extend the interval in such a resulting higher mileage engine(like mine when I got it used at 230,000) and the ability to perform extended drains right away.

I think there may be more to learning about the TAN inherent to a used car. Could it be used after gather evidence/data from a few short intervals on conventional, to see what the TAN may look like?

A point I don't know about:

If this is done, TAN is a condition of the fluid and not the engine directly(thus hard to try to read into from one UOA, let alone a random user from an unknown app), one 'could' then at least discern to a reasonable extent that perhaps the engine is in need of some cleaning and TAN will consistently be high until enough of the contributing acidic elements are cleansed/neutralized/drained out? Is that accurate?

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim

I mean, if a conventional w/ TBN lasts 7,000 miles in your app, then you could probably give about a 20% cushion if using a full synthetic oil that is of an extended drain performance; especially with regards to TBN retention without doubting it's retention compared to a good conventional that can make a certain mileage repeatably.


Your point is not without merit, but this is where I exit the train from the "synthetic" POV.

If a synthetic costs 2x or 3x more money, and you only get 20% more "life" out of it, why spend the money? The ROI is horrible in that example. Spend perhaps 250% money (at 2.5x) and get 20% more OCI?

YIKES!!!

Can synthetics improve the OCIs at times? Absolutely yes they can.

But can they "pay" for themselves in doing so? Often, they cannot, or more appropriately, people will not allow them to do so. They get "skeerd" and OCI at some mental predetermination that suits their ability to sleep at night, rather than work the numbers to their advantage.

And at times, the syn's simply never make the magic ROI point.

If the wear is low, and the TBN is good, it's amost impossible to be today's dino oils from a fiscal point of view.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Yeah, the thing is I wasn't trying to make it a dino/conventional vs 'any' form of syn talk or state anything definite(which is why I was really really relaxed in saying only 20% life increase, which wasnt the point of my post).

I was trying to discuss trying to get more of a handle on an individual app, perhaps of a used but 'new' to you condition, may have as far as extended drain performance on any oil by establishing an idea of what cleansing may be going on from the used oil compared to Virgin.

Of course, to be accurate you rely on all of the variables at least lab related and several samples from Virgin(same bottle etc), early use life, mid-interval, then end of interval analysis to get an idea of the trend relationship between TBN/TAN for 'each' oil in the 'same' engine; and trying to extrapolate how internal engine conditions are with how they eventually affect the oil over time/use. One could get a really definite idea of their app/use seen/its current and trending conditions all relative to oil in use and it's serviceable continued use or plans of 'shorter' intervals do some cleansing for example.

If there were such a way to identify how quickly 'any' oil would take a hit in you individual apps that perhaps have more of a question mark; like the used car world, it may be of great benefit to some AT LEAST from a peace of mind standpoint.

That's all where I'm coming from, especially with so many friends and family that can't buy new and I'm trying to give advice on OCI(relative to oil, consumption, service, etc, etc etc.).

PS: I meant TAN in place of my UOA statement in my previous post.

 

[webfors]

Nice report.. exactly what I expected when I clicked on the link.

 

[dave1251]

Nice report and I had similar results with conventional, and synthetics have value just not in applications like this, back to the OP I would recommend in using a paper air filter I do not see a lot of benefit of using cloth filter in a vehicle like this.

 

[earlyre]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
to the OP I would recommend in using a paper air filter I do not see a lot of benefit of using cloth filter in a vehicle like this.


only benefit right now is cost,& me saving a bit of face, that K&N filter cost ME $50 summer '10.(when he bought the car)

 

[earlyre]

so i emailed blackstone about the Na, and Si levels, and what things i know about the car that could be contributing.

"re: the sodium reading, I believe the prior OCI was a Valvoline product(and I'd probably guess maxlife 5w20 if pressured), but I don’t know for sure, as he was using a quickie-lube type shop...
this engine does indeed have a coolant leak somewhere, but we've not been able to isolate where it's coming from, and he's been satisfied to just "top off the tank" as it were from time to time. (and as the oil wasn't "milky" looking, I wasn't terribly concerned, unless I should be?)

as for the Silicon, He is Running a K&N Drop in "Lifetime" Filter(wash & re-oil every 50k miles), which I have come to understand "can" lead to a higher Si reading. Before he bought this car, it was clearly in a front end collision and slapped back together with a "that'll do" attitude, so a few cracks in the intake wouldn’t surprise me at all..."

their reply:

"Thanks for the email. Valvoline does sodium in a lot of it's oils, so this level could be residual. If that's the case, it'll probably drop on it's own unless, of course, there is a little coolant getting into the oil. We'll know more next time.
The K&N filter has been known to leave some extra silicon in the oil, especially if it's been cleaned and re-oiled
recently. That's harmless though. It wouldn't hurt to check the intake if possible to see if there are any obvious cracks. Let me know if you have any other questions and have a great day.

Alex Miller
Blackstone Laboratories"

 

[ltslimjim]

^Sounds fair in response. The key with using a K&N if silicon numbers don't go down and an air leak is NOT 'post' filtration media(read the K&N), then using a higher-efficiency media might be required ESPECIALLY if concerns of intake leak pre-filter could be a concern. So, where is the potential air intake crack? Before the filter or post filtration?

I've have 'slight' concern about perhaps some coolant in my UOA. It's possible...ugh.

Previous UOA with K&N; note some silicon containing Ultra Gray was used on replacing the oil pressure switch that mounts to the block, but if this were 'mostly' dirt entry at 5k miles that is unacceptable especially for extended drains. I'm not outright blaming the K&N, since there is no way to definitively say it 'caused' but I know it 'could' allow more in and their comments about recently cleaning a K&N w/ +increase in Si values is accurate, IMO.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...548#Post2398548