Honda DW-1 7800 mi/2005 Civic 56k mi

[oiltard]

Why is the flashpoint so low? Should I be concerned?

Code:
Blackstone Labs Used ATF Analysis

3/29/2012



Comments: Thanks for the notes about the new Honda ATF you're using. It looks like it's working pretty well so

far in your Civic's transmission. Our universal averages show typical wear for this type of transmission after

~18,500 miles of oil use, and most of your wear metals are reading at a fraction of those levels, so we don't

see any signs of problems developing. The flashpoint was quite a bit lower than we'd expect for an ATF, but

we don't see any contaminants or other problems that might give a reason for that. The TAN was 1.6, not

too acidic. No problems here.



Mi/Hr on Oil: 7,800

Mi/Hr on Unit: 56,200

Sample Date: 3/21/12

Make up oil added: 0



Sample Universal Averages

Aluminum 6 30

Chromium 0 1

Iron 20 65

Copper 6 15

Lead 2 2

Tin 0 1

Molybdenum 1 1

Nickel 0 0

Manganese 1 1

Silver 0 0

Titanium 0 0

Boron 226 221

Silicon 6 11

Sodium 0 8

Calcium 362 343

Magnesium 222 168

Phosphorus 26 111

Zinc 278 283

Barium 1 3



Sample Values Values Should Be

SUS Vis.210F 44.9 43-51

cSt Vis.100C 5.68 5.1-7.9

Flashpt F 285 >335

Water % 0.0
Insols 0.0
TAN 1.6

 

[gathermewool]

IIRC, neither Honda ATF started off with a very high FP

 

[Hokiefyd]

Thank you for posting this UOA. Do you know if Blackstone's universal averages are for Honda Civics as a whole, for Honda-branded ATFs in general, or for ATF-DW1 in particular?

 

[bourne]

you will be surprised by the VI of that fluid though , ~ 255 if im not mistaken. But Maxlife, Redline D4 and Amsoil all have a much higher boiling point and are suitable in our application.

The UOA looks great btw !

 

[oiltard]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Thank you for posting this UOA. Do you know if Blackstone's universal averages are for Honda Civics as a whole, for Honda-branded ATFs in general, or for ATF-DW1 in particular?


I don't know, but I e-mailed this question to Blackstone and will let you know what they say.

 

[oiltard]

Here's the response I received from Blackstone Labs:

Originally Posted By: Blackstone Labs
Thanks for the email. Universal averages do not have anything to do with the oil type. Rather, they show normal wear for that type of engine or transmission after so many miles. In your case, universal averages are made up of all the normal Honda automatic transmissions that we've seen and the average oil run for those transmissions has been around 18,500 miles. The averages are made up of all different sorts of ATF, so the additives are going to vary some, but wear metals are really what we're concerned about and those should compare fairly well. Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any other questions and have a great day.


So other than Flashpoint, the DW-1 is relatively unremarkable, wouldn't you say?

 

[gogozy]

brand new DW-1 has pretty low flash point on the MSDS too. in fact, it has the same as Z1.

 

[oiltard]

According to the MSDS I found, Flashpoint s/b 170C/338F, which is way below where Blackstone tested my sample. Possible that this was a lab error? I can't imagine 7800 miles of use did anything that would cause a huge drop in flashpoint, in the absence of contamination (which wasn't found).

Also, the virgin ATF alleges to be 6.835 cSt @ 100C, 25.09cSt @ 40C. How do we calculate the VI? Aren't those the necessary data points?

 

[oiltard]

Oops. Missed my chance to edit. Not below. Above.

 

[benjamming]

7800 miles is not "nothing". It's a decent amount of miles & a long ways away from anything that could remotely be considered a VOA.

 

[oiltard]

Originally Posted By: benjamming
7800 miles is not "nothing". It's a decent amount of miles & a long ways away from anything that could remotely be considered a VOA.


Not sure what this is in reference to, exactly. Are you saying I claimed this was a VOA? Considering something a VOA and saying something might have some use as a baseline in the absence of a VOA are 2 entirely different things.

Or are you saying that my 7800 miles of use on this fluid (which the manual says to change <HALF of at 60k miles, and then <HALF every 30k thereafter) mutilated it in some way as to lower the flashpoint by 50 Fahrenheits?

 

[PandaBear]

Looks like they still use Zinc as additive.

 

[benjamming]

oiltard,

I got the impression from your posts that you expected a 7800 mile UOA of this ATF to be relatively clean. I was trying to say that this is pretty much worthless as a baseline VOA other than to see which additives they use (such as Zinc which PandaBear pointed out). However, amounts can't really be determined to any accuracy at all.
I was also trying to say that 7800 miles may not be too terribly far off from needing a drain & refill. It's probably closer to needing a D&R than not. Unfortunately, Honda AT are pretty harsh on the fluid as can be seen here.
I was speaking nothing about the flashpoint. A tribologist would be the best person to ask about that.

 

[oiltard]

I did expect this report to be pretty clean, and it was pretty clean. REALLY Clean, I'd say. Are you really saying this fluid looks past its prime?

7800 miles isn't the distance since the last drain & refill, it's the total distance on the fluid tested. Honda recommends 60k on the new fluid before the first drain & refill. Then another drain & fill is recommended after another 30k. Which means when the average age of the fluid (assuming 50% drained & refilled) is 75,000 miles. This fluid is 10.4% used up, according to the manufacturer. It's not remotely closer to needing a drain & refill than it is to being new.

This is a 2005 model, which do NOT have the kind of problematic history of the 2001 and 2002's. And I'm not aware that the root cause of any transmission problems were that the AT was "harsh" on the fluid. In the Civics that did have issues, it appears that the clutch pack(s) broke apart and clogged the lines, so the fluid wasn't actually getting where it was needed.

My only point was (and still is) that someone with a much higher-mileage sample might want to look at this as a point of comparison, since there's no VOA of this fluid readily available. If you want to spend the money for a VOA of this fluid, let me know. You provide a check payable to Blackstone and I'll provide the sample, pay the shipping, and post it.

 

[oiltard]

Originally Posted By: benjamming
oiltard,
Honda AT are pretty harsh on the fluid as can be seen here.
I was speaking nothing about the flashpoint.


This is where I think we're not communicating well. Can you explain this statement about the AT being harsh on fluid, and how that can be seen in my sample?

 

[benjamming]

viscosity

Any pictures of the buildup on the magnet since that is the only real filter in the system?

Agreed that the AT in your Civic isn't Honda's worst attempt at trying to build their own AT, not by a long shot. BTW, 2005 was the year that they finally got serious about building a real AT & fixed the issues in the Accord 5-speed. Oil starvation was a serious issue. Bearings were one issue in the 98-02 Accord 4-speed AT.

Honda AT being harsh on the fluid aren't my words but rather those of a tribologist.

 

[oiltard]

No photos of the drain plug or the build up, but the thing was immaculate. I almost didn't wipe it with the rag it was so clean. Hardly left a gray mark on a white rag.

Compared to the flashpoint, the viscosity of my sample is far closer to what the MSDS says it should be. You think this difference is significant enough to be more than statistical noise/variation?

 

[benjamming]

Will Blackstone tell you what their standard lab error is for flash & vis?

 

[ltslimjim]

I think benjamming's point is about relativity and context, while not trying to hate on oiltard's analysis here. It's more of an attempt at stating some technical limitations that need to be realized for said context and relative use of such information for other users of OP's fluid sampled here and/or having app's equipped with same/similar auto trans.

Not necessarily to attack oiltard's statement but for OTHER readers of BITOG not to get things out of context or read into it the wrong way in other words.

 

[oiltard]

I sent the following follow-up e-mail to Blackstone:

Originally Posted By: me
Thanks for clearing that up. Can you tell me which method was used to determine flashpoint? Also, is there a standard lab margin of error? I'm just trying to interpret the seemingly very low flashpoint and cSt @ 100* compared to the MSDS for this fluid.

Thanks for any insight you can offer


I hope that adequately conveys the question. Despite the spirited discussion, I'm learning from this exchange, so thanks.