ACDelco dexos1 5w30; 734/837 mi; '11 Caddy 3.0L DI

[doyall]

First test (734 miles) was immediately after a road trip, half the miles one way, half coming back. No problems.

Second test was after an additional five (5) days with ten (10), approximately ten (10) mile trips for the wife to go to work and back each day. It is amazing how short of a time (5 days - 100 miles) it takes for the excessive fuel dilution to happen.

Was back at the dealership service department again yesterday with these UOA's and they didn't see the problem. I have asked for a meeting with a GM rep to discuss the situation. Any suggestions as to what questions/statements/observations I should include in the discussion (if it happens) would be welcome.

ACDelco dexos1 5W/30
MILES IN USE 734/837 miles
MILES ON UNIT AT SAMPLE 6,885/6,988 miles
SAMPLE TAKEN 2-5-2012/2-10-2012
TEST BY POLARIS LABS - INDIANAPOLIS FACILITY

Code:


IRON 1/2

CHROMIUM 0/0

NICKEL 0/0

ALUMINUM 0/1

COPPER 2/2

LEAD 0/0

TIN 0/0

CADMIUM 0/0

SILVER 0/0

VANADIUM 0/0

SILICON 8/5

SODIUM 0/1

POTASSIUM 3/0

TITANIUM 0/0

MOLYBDENUM 61/67

ANTIMONY 0/0

MANGANESE 0/0

LITHIUM 0/0

BORON 147/145

MAGNESIUM 10/8

CALCIUM 1909/1811

BARIUM 1/0

PHOSPHORUS 646/623

ZINC 728/664



WATER
SOOT
FUEL (estimate) 5% ***

cSt @ 100ºC 12.4/8.4 **

OXIDATION 7/7

NITRATION 11/12

BASE NUMBER 6.27/6.16


Polaris flags:
* = Normal (on the upside toward Abnormal)
** = Abnormal
*** = Critical

 

[ARCOgraphite]

It would seem a 10 mile trip with the spouse drving is too short/moderate to burn off fuel. Thats a bit much on the fuel but the engine is wearing in. How big is the sump? Who did the initial 0-100 mile ring wear in? And did you stick the service manager's nose in the Polaris Critical ***? I'm sure they dont have a CLUE about used oil analysis.
Good to hear about the meeting with the rep. When I had a Citation X-11 with a "out of the box" rod rap, the local GM dealer kept promising me a meeting with the Zone Rep but he never showed up over 3 times. I was young at the time and they just played me like a fiddle.

 

[doyall]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
... How big is the sump? ...


Six quarts

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
... Who did the initial 0-100 mile ring wear in? ...


Car was a transfer from another dealer when acquired and had ~300 miles on odometer.

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
...And did you stick the service manager's nose in the Polaris Critical ***? ...


They were unimpressed. Suggested I was being overly concerned.

 

[chubbs1]

I am going to play devils advocate here so bear with me. It does not appear that the fuel dilution is causing a huge problem to the engine or the oil (besides thinning it of course). I would extend these UOA's a bit to see if this fuel is really affecting the wear rate of your engine. Yes, there is no doubt excessive fuel is "getting in" for lack of a better term, but until you could prove (on paper) that it is causing issues I don't know if you are going to have a good argument.

I can tell this is bothering you, but the UOA's, though short, don't appear bad. Maybe you should try to take it out a little farther and rest easy. The other option is to try to get a new car without DI, because excess fuel i going to be an issue for the fore-seeable future with those engines.

Just my

Chubbs

 

[johnachak]

I can imagine the Fuel in my wife's oil. We have the caddy 3.6 DI and her trip to work is a little over 4 miles each way. I change the Mobil 1 (which the oil cap calls for) every 6 months for that reason. The mileage is sick low for Mobil 1. One of these days I'll do a UOA. I'm afraid to check. The car is a 2009 made in 08 and it only has 17,000 miles.
If I may ask, how much was the Polaris analysis?

 

[chevman4life]

Originally Posted By: chubbs1
I am going to play devils advocate here so bear with me. It does not appear that the fuel dilution is causing a huge problem to the engine or the oil (besides thinning it of course). I would extend these UOA's a bit to see if this fuel is really affecting the wear rate of your engine. Yes, there is no doubt excessive fuel is "getting in" for lack of a better term, but until you could prove (on paper) that it is causing issues I don't know if you are going to have a good argument.

I can tell this is bothering you, but the UOA's, though short, don't appear bad. Maybe you should try to take it out a little farther and rest easy. The other option is to try to get a new car without DI, because excess fuel i going to be an issue for the fore-seeable future with those engines.

Just my

Chubbs


+1

 

[doyall]

Originally Posted By: johnachak
... If I may ask, how much was the Polaris analysis?


Apx. $175 shipped for 10.

 

[doyall]

Originally Posted By: chubbs1
...It does not appear that the fuel dilution is causing a huge problem to the engine ...


Nor do I want it to do so long term, therefore the proactivity.

Originally Posted By: chubbs1
... I would extend these UOA's a bit ...


That is the plan. Certainly there is no benefit in the short term in doing an analysis for any other reason than to measure fuel dilution. I am only doing them so frequently now to determine the operational parameters required to mitigate the situation. If anyone knows where a fuel dilution only test can be had for less than the full UOA, I would be interested in knowing who they are.

I am posting these as well for the benefit of others with the HFV6 SIDI engines.

Originally Posted By: chubbs1
... until you could prove (on paper) that it is causing issues I don't know if you are going to have a good argument. ...


The overwhelming weight of learned research I have read (I'll get links and post them in due course), and probably the research contained in literature I do not have access to as well, state conclusively that excessive fuel dilution is problematic on a wide variety of fronts. Generally speaking, the 4% level seems to be a stated common number over which the ability of oil to perform its critical functions are compromised. You tell me what happens when oil doesn't perform its critical functions. Like I inferred earlier, I would like to prevent damage, not deal with it after it happens.

Without GM telling me before I bought it that unless the car is driven xx miles every time it is started you will have an excess fuel dilution problem that will significantly and negatively affect the durability and dependability of the engine, among other things, I am going to argue that it does not conform to their express warranty that it is free of defects and as a result significantly impairs the use of it.

Originally Posted By: chubbs1
... I can tell this is bothering you ... rest easy ...


No words you (or anyone else) can say will convince me that you (they) wouldn't be concerned if this was happening to your (or their) new(er) Dodge.

Now, I have an older boat with the 30+ year old design, cast iron Chevy 3.0L four cylinder that holds 4 quarts but when I change it I get 5 quarts out that I don't get up in arms about, but ...


Originally Posted By: chubbs1
... The other option is to try to get a new car without DI ...


I can see that happening before the warranty runs out.

Originally Posted By: chubbs1
... Just my

I appreciate the opportunity to have the discussion. Gets me ready for a GM rep, if it happens. Please take no offense at the push-back.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

AFA fuel dilution check. you could take a moderate size sample, weight it (w/in .01grams if under 50ml) then get it in a doulble boiler for 1/2 hour to drive off upper volatiles and h20 then weigh again, calc ratio for %off and you could guestimate that as fuel %.

 

[johnachak]

Originally Posted By: doyall
Originally Posted By: johnachak
... If I may ask, how much was the Polaris analysis?


Apx. $175 shipped for 10.

That includes the containers and packing?

 

[johnachak]

It makes me wonder what if any fuel dilution there would be in a "Normal" (Non DI) engine in cold weather with 3-4 mile trips?

 

[chubbs1]

Hey no offense taken, like I said I was just trying to be the devils' advocate...lol

I see your point totally, if my new Charger was diluting like that I would be taking a proactive approach as well.

That is a very nice car I hope things work out. Good luck!

Keep us posted.

 

[Colt45ws]

Originally Posted By: johnachak
Originally Posted By: doyall
Originally Posted By: johnachak
... If I may ask, how much was the Polaris analysis?


Apx. $175 shipped for 10.

That includes the containers and packing?


YupYup. I did the same thing and bought a 10 pack. Includes TBN for that price as well. Steal compared to [censored].

 

[johnachak]

Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
Originally Posted By: johnachak
Originally Posted By: doyall
Originally Posted By: johnachak
... If I may ask, how much was the Polaris analysis?


Apx. $175 shipped for 10.

That includes the containers and packing?


YupYup. I did the same thing and bought a 10 pack. Includes TBN for that price as well. Steal compared to [censored].


Thank you folks for the information. I guess I'm going to have to give them a try.

 

[johnachak]

I guess this explains why my dealer said for low mileage applications they recommend oil changes at 5 months regardless of the OLM percentage. They let me bring my own M1 since they get over $100 for a M1 change and they want it done before the OLM says. I wonder, since Dexos 1 replaced the 4718 spec, if they would use that Semi Syn instead of the M1 if I didn't bring it. Good luck and enjoy the car. We love ours for sure.

 

[JAG]

Maybe using an oil pan heater would help evaporate out some of that fuel. Why was the viscosity that high on the first sample?

 

[doyall]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Maybe using an oil pan heater would help evaporate out some of that fuel. ...


I was thinking that exact same thing. Looked at Wolverine heaters but they require an absolutely smooth surface which, IIRC from my last venture underneath the car, my oil pan doesn't have. Not so sure a dipstick heater would provide a wide enough heat dispersion to do the trick. Anybody have any suggestions as to other brands?

Originally Posted By: JAG
... Why was the viscosity that high on the first sample?


I noticed that as well. Not really sure. According to the part number on the dealer service report they used oil from bulk. The 12.4 cSt suggests that it is almost a 40 weight and 10% over the tested (posted on BITOG) viscosity of 11.2 and almost 15% over the published (on MSDS) viscosity of 10.9.

Maybe GM has changed the visc in an attempt to deal with problems such as dilution, shearing, etc. Surely it wouldn't have experienced oxidative thickening in ~700 miles over 10 days.

 

[doyall]

Originally Posted By: johnachak
... I guess I'm going to have to give them a try.


FWIW, the Indianapolis facility has provided me with the most timely reports.

 

[johnachak]

Thank you

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: doyall
Originally Posted By: JAG
Maybe using an oil pan heater would help evaporate out some of that fuel. ...


I was thinking that exact same thing. Looked at Wolverine heaters but they require an absolutely smooth surface which, IIRC from my last venture underneath the car, my oil pan doesn't have. Not so sure a dipstick heater would provide a wide enough heat dispersion to do the trick. Anybody have any suggestions as to other brands?

Originally Posted By: JAG
... Why was the viscosity that high on the first sample?


I noticed that as well. Not really sure. According to the part number on the dealer service report they used oil from bulk. The 12.4 cSt suggests that it is almost a 40 weight and 10% over the tested (posted on BITOG) viscosity of 11.2 and almost 15% over the published (on MSDS) viscosity of 10.9.

Maybe GM has changed the visc in an attempt to deal with problems such as dilution, shearing, etc. Surely it wouldn't have experienced oxidative thickening in ~700 miles over 10 days.


I have Kat's 150 watt 4"x5" oil pan heaters on the Cruze and Fit. The instructions said to heat the pad up to get it to stick to uneven surfaces. They do a good job of heating the engine on cold mornings. I've seen coolant temperatures 30*F above ambient when the pads have been plugged in for 4-5 hours (they're on timers). I get up to operating temperature within 5 miles.

It might not help much, but if it's burning off some of the excess fuel, it'll help some.