Euro spec oils vs North American

[felixthecat]

Originally Posted By: RollerRocker
Ferrari factory fill in the United States is Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-40, which also meets all the tougest European specs like VW 504/507, Porsche C30, and Mercedes. and Helio Castroneves uses it in his indycar race cars off-the-shelf. Also, Lubrizol engineers say the VW 504/507 has the best "wear" specs.


You got me
I give up!

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: RollerRocker
Ferrari factory fill in the United States is Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-40, which also meets all the tougest European specs like VW 504/507, Porsche C30, and Mercedes. and Helio Castroneves uses it in his indycar race cars off-the-shelf. Also, Lubrizol engineers say the VW 504/507 has the best "wear" specs.

No disrespect, but why not look at its spec sheet before you spread misinformation? Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-40 (which is the same as Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40 in other countries) does not meet VW 504/507 nor Porsche C30 specs.

http://www.pennzoil.com/documents/PENNZOILULTRAEuropean5W40.pdf

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: RollerRocker
and Helio Castroneves uses it in his indycar race cars off-the-shelf.

Also, what does this have to do with our daily drivers? Does Helio's engine need to last 100-200K miles and 10 years? Does Helio care if his race engine (if it's DI) has deposit buildup issues after 10-15K miles?

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: RollerRocker
Ferrari factory fill in the United States is Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-40, which also meets all the tougest European specs like VW 504/507, Porsche C30, and Mercedes. and Helio Castroneves uses it in his indycar race cars off-the-shelf. Also, Lubrizol engineers say the VW 504/507 has the best "wear" specs.


Ferrari has a factory in the U.S.?

Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 meets 504/507?

All news to me...

Although you're right that it appears to carry some sort of Ferrari endorsement in the U.S.

 

[RollerRocker]

You are right, the Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-40 meets VW 502/505. Its the close cousin, the Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-30 weight that meets VW 504/507. I was looking at http://www.pennzoil.com/#/motor-oil/pennzoil-ultra-euro before and misread the lists.

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: RollerRocker
You are right, the Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-40 meets VW 502/505. Its the close cousin, the Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-30 weight that meets VW 504/507. I was looking at http://www.pennzoil.com/#/motor-oil/pennzoil-ultra-euro before and misread the lists.


There is a Pennzoil Ultra Euro L 5W-30 that meets 504/507, but I have never actually seen it and don't even know of a place to buy it in the U.S.

 

[RollerRocker]

All the VW 504/507 oils are 5w-30, while the VW 502/505 oils are 40 weights. Interestingly, Lubrizol says the lower weight oils in the 504/507 category actually have better relative wear specs to earn.

Anyway, the indycar race oil Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40 should be closely related to the Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-30.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: felixthecat
If one person can do one push up and another person 10, then yes, the person that can do 10 pushups is likely closest to meeting Olympic specs (assuming that more pushups is good).

Maybe we should tell Ferrari to use VW 504/507 oils.
I realize VW 502 specs have a norrow scope, but it does not change the fact that it is the VW spec that is "more like" Ferrari,BMW LL01 and MB 229.5 specs.

Let me try again.

Ferrari has their own oil spec. One of the oils that meets that spec also happens to meet VW 502. That doesn't mean the specs are related.

Here's another analogy: Imagine a cop who also likes knitting. Would that mean knitting is like being a police officer?

 

[RollerRocker]

"Ferrari factory fill in the United States" means "Ferrari factory fill for cars sent to the United States", just to clarify.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: RollerRocker
You are right, the Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-40 meets VW 502/505. Its the close cousin, the Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-30 weight that meets VW 505/507.

I wouldn't call it a "close cousin". The two Ultra Euro grades are in fact very different, meant for different applications. The Euro 5w-30 is a low-SAPs oil designed specifically to meet various modern diesel specs and to protect those engines' intricate emissions equipment (DPF).

And the whole argument here was that due to sulfur levels in US gasoline, many German MFGs advise against the use of such low-SAPs oils in their gasoline engines here, presumably because the weak add pack may not be up to the task of making it through the entire extended OCI which is sometimes as high as 15K miles. Now, if you're not going to follow MFG OCI recommendations and just change it every 5K miles like dbrowne is doing, then there shouldn't be a problem. And the benefit of running a low-SAPs oil in a DI application is that it should result in fewer valve deposits, at least in theory. I don't think we have enough data yet to confirm nor deny this claim at this point.

On a side note, I find it a bit amusing that Pennzoil calls the Ultra Euro 5w-30 "a low volatility" oil despite its Noack being 11%, the same as for Ultra Euro 5w-40. At one point in time, I've questioned SOPUS on that figure, because in order to meet MB 229.5 spec, an oil needs to have Noack of no more than 10%. A SOPUS employee responded that the 11% figure in the spec sheet was wrong and that in fact PUE 5w-40 has Noack below 10%. They promised to update the spec sheet. They never did.

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: RollerRocker
All the VW 504/507 oils are 5w-30


True.

Quote:
while the VW 502/505 oils are 40 weights.


Not true. There are any number of 0W-30 oils that meet 502, with "German Castrol" being a prime example.



Quote:
Anyway, the indycar race oil Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40 should be closely related to the Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-30.


They are not closely related. One is a mid-SAPS ACEA A3/B3, VW 502.00, BMW LL01, etc. oil, while the other is a low-SAPS that meets a whole different set of specs (ACEA C3, VW 504/507, LL04, etc.). They are very different oils.

 

[RollerRocker]

Originally Posted By: dbrowne1

There is a Pennzoil Ultra Euro L 5W-30 that meets 504/507, but I have never actually seen it and don't even know of a place to buy it in the U.S.


A Jiffy Lube in Colorado claims to have Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-30, meeting VW 504/507, although not everybody carries it. Also, Amazon.com is easy, or any store like Autozone or Pep Boys can special order from their pennzoil rep.

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: RollerRocker
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1

There is a Pennzoil Ultra Euro L 5W-30 that meets 504/507, but I have never actually seen it and don't even know of a place to buy it in the U.S.


A Jiffy Lube in Colorado claims to have Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-30, meeting VW 504/507, although not everybody carries it. Also, Amazon.com is easy, or any store like Autozone or Pep Boys can special order from their pennzoil rep.


Have you actually tried to do any of those things? Did you check Amazon to see if it's actually available (hint: it's not)?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: RollerRocker
"Ferrari factory fill in the United States" means "Ferrari factory fill for cars sent to the United States", just to clarify.

You're confusing terms here. "Factory fill" means the specific oil that gets put into the engine at the factory. For Ferrari, that would be Italy, if I remember correctly.

The term you're probably looking for is "service fill". That is the oil that a local dealer will put in your engine if you take your car to a Ferrari dealer for service. Factory fill and service fill are not always the same oil, but they certainly could be.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
They are not closely related. One is a mid-SAPS ACEA A3/B3, VW 502.00, BMW LL01, etc. oil, while the other is a low-SAPS that meets a whole different set of specs (ACEA C3, VW 504/507, LL04, etc.). They are very different oils.

PUE 5w-40 is actually a full/high-SAPs oil, just like M1 0w-40 or GC.

 

[RollerRocker]

I would doubt if the two Pzl Ultr Euros, one a 30 and one a 40, would be that different just due to SAPS requirements. Only a Pennzoil insider would really know if the chemistry had to be terribly different in two products in the same product line. So lets not pretend to know.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Their add pack levels are certainly different. That in itself makes them different. Are you now going to argue the definition of "different"?

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Their add pack levels are certainly different. That in itself makes them different. Are you now going to argue the definition of "different"?


I'm willing to bet their base oils differ substantially as well, if other companies' analogous product lines are any indication.

 

[RollerRocker]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: RollerRocker
"Ferrari factory fill in the United States" means "Ferrari factory fill for cars sent to the United States", just to clarify.

You're confusing terms here. "Factory fill" means the specific oil that gets put into the engine at the factory. For Ferrari, that would be Italy, if I remember correctly.

The term you're probably looking for is "service fill". That is the oil that a local dealer will put in your engine if you take your car to a Ferrari dealer for service. Factory fill and service fill are not always the same oil, but they certainly could be.

wrong. Its been reported that Ferrari uses Pennzoil as factory fill, exactly what i said.

 

[dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By: RollerRocker
I would doubt if the two Pzl Ultr Euros, one a 30 and one a 40, would be that different just due to SAPS requirements. Only a Pennzoil insider would really know if the chemistry had to be terribly different in two products in the same product line. So lets not pretend to know.


Lets look at the spec sheets (at things like flash point, pour point, and VI that allow us to infer things about base stocks), and then both the actual specs and the general requirements to meet the vastly different specs (like 502 versus 504) on things like SAPS.

Look at those things across various oil companies' product lines, including Pennzoil. Then there won't be any guessing.