why is a3/b4 0w20 so rare?

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You answered your own question: to date no one has ever mass-marketed a 0w20 with HTHS of 3.5 or better. Some of the boutique oils like Renewable Lubricants and Redline have 0w20s with HTHS above 3.0, but still not 3.5+.
 
They're rare because they don't exist.

You'll notice that the Kroon 0W-20 doesn't provide the HTHSV spec'.
Red Line's 0W-20 (HTHSV of 3.0cP) claims to be an A3, and B3/B4 as well and we know it's not. See copy of bottle label below:

https://plus.google.com/photos/112107874...180234982888481

It doesn't matter what SAE grade or ACEA rating a formulator claims, if you want to know the actual operational viscosity of an oil you need to determine accurately the HTHSV rating.
 
The above points prove why the standard "grades" are no longer working.

HTHS is more related to fuel economy than "grade", so it makes no sense to even try to aim for 3.5 HTHS in an oil thta is marketted for economy.
 
The kroon 0w20 is actually a really hths 3.5. I called kroon oil, and litterly asked them what is the hths of this product and the assuref me it is 3.5 . Furthermore one the bottle( i have a few in the garage ) it litterly says acea a3/b4 api sm/cf .
 
This has been discussed before in previous threads.
Show me something in writing.

Besides it doesn't matter. A 3.5cP oil is a 3.5cP oil regardless of the SAE grade on the bottle. If Kroon wants to label it as a 0W-20 that won't make the oil any lighter than a 3.5cP) oil labelled as a 0W-30; they will have the same operational viscosities assuming they have the same VIs.

But if having a 3.5cP is of paramount importance I woundn't be using the Krone oil unless I tested it first; i.e., ran it in a vehicle with an oil pressure gauge.
 
Originally Posted By: salgra
The kroon 0w20 is actually a really hths 3.5. I called kroon oil, and litterly asked them what is the hths of this product and the assuref me it is 3.5 . Furthermore one the bottle( i have a few in the garage ) it litterly says acea a3/b4 api sm/cf .

FE oil by definition will have a fairly low HTHS - that is how you achieve good fuel economy in the first place. So, I call B/S on their ACEA A3 claim. Someone should call ACEA to verify if that oil has in fact been approved for ACEA A3/B3 spec or if it's just "recommended for" like many boutique oils are.
 
Salgra, we're not trying to give you a hard time and I realize Kroon is a Netherlands-based company, but their HTHS data is contradictory. There are two possibilities: it's 0W-20 oil with a maximum HTHS of 3.0 or it's 0W-30 oil with a HTHS of 3.5. I'm curious. What does it cost per liter?
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: salgra
The kroon 0w20 is actually a really hths 3.5. I called kroon oil, and litterly asked them what is the hths of this product and the assuref me it is 3.5 . Furthermore one the bottle( i have a few in the garage ) it litterly says acea a3/b4 api sm/cf .

FE oil by definition will have a fairly low HTHS - that is how you achieve good fuel economy in the first place. So, I call B/S on their ACEA A3 claim. Someone should call ACEA to verify if that oil has in fact been approved for ACEA A3/B3 spec or if it's just "recommended for" like many boutique oils are.


That's what I was thinking, too.
 
Originally Posted By: salgra
Hi Guy's,
I have been using kroon oil enersynth FE 0w20, ( http://www.kroon-oil.com/en/products/cat...-specificaties/ )

in everything i have for about a year now.
It surprise's me that a lot of people nerver heard of such an oil, they alway's say; Impssible a hths 3.5 0w20, and comment's like it has to be a missprint, etc.
What is so special about a hths 3.5 0w20?



I've been skeptical about the HTHS of Kroon's 0w20 since I analyzed the data on its product information sheet. Given the stated values of KV40 and KV100, it is possible to extrapolate what the kinematic viscosity should be at 150C: KV40 = 46.7
KV100 = 8.54
Using Widman's viscosity calculator gives KV150= 3.77cSt

Converting this kinematic viscosity to dynamic viscosity can be done by multiplying by the density at 150C:
density @ 15C = .846
Correcting the density to 150C is done by multiplying by .9, which is an average correction factor based on a curve fit that I have done for a variety of oils.
density @ 150C = .761

Dynamic viscosity at 150C is the product of the kinematic viscosity and density: 3.77 * .761 = 2.87cP

This number represents what the dynamic viscosity of the Kroon oil would be if it were heated to 150C, which is the temperature at which the HTHS test is done. Taking the ratio of this DV150 value to the HTHS that Kroon claims: 3.5/2.87 = 1.22.

I have done this calculation for a large number of oils, and very few of them have values above 0.9. Redline's oils do exceed 1.0 on a few of their blends that don't have VII's. But it doesn't make sense to me that an oil can have an HTHS that is 22% larger than the dynamic viscosity that is based on the viscosity index calculation. Since I'm not a chemist, I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just very skeptical.
 
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Called kroon again today to confirm the hths and that it is not just an oil acting like a a3/b4 oil. and the assured me again hths is exactly 3.5 . I voiced my skepticism to them and the where very surprised. the man said; there are a few out there.
Guy's i am not trying to defend kroon oil, it is of no interest to me ( I am just curious, and if it really is a3/b4 engine oil a think this would be great . but if hths is not 3.5 they would be all out lying and since it is printed on the bottle : confirms to a3/b4 . They would claim something it is not, sounds dangerous to me.

a picture of the bottle: http://www.kroon-oil.com/media/Afbeeldingen nieuwsitems/Enersynth.jpg
 
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BTW I'm not very impressed with this oil.
For a 0W-20 it has a very low VI of only 162.
They also claim it's intended for Hybrid applications and it is a " very low viscous oil". That being the case I'd put the HTHSV in the 2.6-2.7cP range.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Could you send in a sample to a lab and have them measure the kinematic viscosities?

Yes but we're not questioning the kinematic spec's, I'm sure they're right.
It's labelled as an ACEA A3/B3/B4 oil and I simply think it's mislabelled. That's not the market this oils intended for.
It's like RL 0W-20 which is also labelled as meeting the requirements of ACEA A3 and B3/B4 but we all know it's a misprint and if you ask RL they'll tell you it's misprint.
I'm sure it's the same situation for Kroon.
The guy the OP is talking to simply doesn't know what he's talking about.
 
I agree that the KV's are likely correct. But I was thinking that if the KV showed a 30-weight viscosity, that would go a little way toward explaining the 3.5 HTHS. I don't think the OP would want to pay for an HTHS test, which I hear is expensive.
 
IIRC one of my favorite oils on paper, the Redline 0W-20 (which can be used in light 30 applications) has an HTHS of either 3.0 or 3.1 and as CATERHAM pointed out this also indicates discrepancy between what an oil maker chooses to label SAE and what it actually is. I think that is a good thing with that Redline for those stepping down a grade since they really arent, and i would feel -wholly- comfortable putting RL 0W-20 in ALMOST all 30wt applications, due to its HTHS, making it a 30..

The Kroon oil sounds deceptive. I wouldnt trust it.
 
I have E-mailed kroon oil, and got a (short) response from their engineering department.
It's say's ( translated by me off course )

The HTHS requirements for acea a3/b4 are =>3.5
ENERSYNTH FE 0W20 Meets this hths requirement, because it's hths is 3.5 And therefore is acea a3/b4 certified.

I am starting to think it really is 3.5 .
The answer came, according to the mail address, form their engineering department.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman

This number represents what the dynamic viscosity of the Kroon oil would be if it were heated to 150C


This is a 0 shear situation number or best case scenario. Right?
 
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