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#2476446 - 12/29/11 02:31 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: 2k05gt]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4548
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
Great post, nleksan. I agree with everything you said. I hope to see you posting more in the future.
2k05GT, I want to thank you too for all of your posts and efforts to make this thread.

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#2476557 - 12/29/11 04:44 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: JAG]
DragRace Offline


Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 2327
Loc: 1/4 Mile Track
Originally Posted By: JAG
Great post, nleksan. I agree with everything you said. I hope to see you posting more in the future.
2k05GT, I want to thank you too for all of your posts and efforts to make this thread.


Like I said earlier,this is one of the best topics on this forum,period.Thanks for your post nleksan!

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#2476606 - 12/29/11 05:53 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: 2k05gt]
nleksan Offline


Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 562
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
Thank you very much, JAG and DragRace! I have read a number of posts by both of you and have enjoyed every one, so I very much appreciate the compliments! smile

Also, FWIW (to add to my prior post), there really is NOTHING here that can be considered "SCIENTIFIC", in the truest sense of the word... UOA's don't prove or disprove anything, and pretty much everything people post as "proof" of why, say, Mobil1 is completely superior to RP, is stated in a way that is "un-falsifiable", making it, by definition, NOT SCIENCE.. In fact, that drops it square into the PSEUDO-SCIENCE category, right next to subliminal self-help tapes and whatnot.

Perhaps, if we were all in this TOGETHER, to seek answers without constantly stumbling (and falling flat on our faces) due to our own biases, we would actually achieve something. But as long as there is this "in-fighting" about "MY OIL CAN BEAT UP YOUR OIL!", results will never come and the forum will become as stagnant as a mosquito puddle in the Florida Everglades...

I AM NOT saying this to "call out" or "be mean" or whatever to anyone, I am just stating my opinion. I think this place is FULL of some absolutely brilliant minds, and I can only imagine how much could be accomplished if all of these brilliant minds worked together instead of against one another...
_________________________
00 328Ci(419rwhp/392rwtq) RL/Motul/OS Giken
06 M3 ZCP/6MT - RL
01 325i - RL/RP
03 M5 - RL
88 M6 (Eu) - RL
95 M5 (Eu) - RL

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#2476783 - 12/29/11 09:07 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: nleksan]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9344
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Also, as a man of science (Biochemical Engineering, in fact, though focused on Psychopharmacology), I understand the need of some people for evidence vs proof, etc.

"The need of some people?" You talk about the demand for evidence like it's the demand for an apple martini.

Some of us want claims to be backed up with evidence, and are willing to put some thought into whether that evidence really backs up what's being said. Others are satisfied with big pictures and elaborate stories with grand statements. This shouldn't be written off as different strokes for different folks.


Originally Posted By: nleksan
But you will never get that

This gets repeated a lot here, as though it means that we should accept whatever we do get instead of evidence. I hope that's not what you meant.


Originally Posted By: nleksan
it only comes across as holier-than-thou when you ask someone to "prove" something you state that is unfalsifiable, and then use the fact that they can't "prove" that RP is/did better as your own "proof" that it is worse!

What exactly was said that is unfalsifiable? Who's claiming that RP "is worse?"


Originally Posted By: nleksan
In this case, an anecdotal report, or perhaps a small sample size case study, the OP did a thorough and unbiased documentation of why he believes RP performs better than M1 in his application, backing it up with many photographs, measurements, and observations. He even went out of his way to add to his sampling. And still, people say things like "interesting maybe, but it has no meaning".

The reasons for those criticisms have been amply spelled out. As a "man of science," you should be able to understand them clearly. If you'd care to address them, I'm sure we're all ears.

The OP gets an A for effort, and his investigations are a dang sight better than 99% of what we get here. No one disagrees on that. Would you rather we praise him for his efforts and just gloss over what he got wrong? You're criticizing people for being condescending; would it be better if they were patronizing instead?


Originally Posted By: nleksan
Be a HEALTHY SKEPTIC, not a fanboy! Appreciate good results, dont look for reasons why the oil you dislike "has no merit" and then try to prove that the oil.you do like, which by all accounts performed poorly, is not really to blame.

Calling out errors in the OP's investigations is NOT the same thing as saying Royal Purple is garbage and Mobil 1 is better. I'm really hoping you understand this, and that your comments above are based on a misreading of the thread.


Originally Posted By: nleksan
I apologize.if this.comes.across as harsh, thats not the intent.

There's nothing "harsh" about straightforwardly criticizing an argument. Those who can dish it out should be able to take it, wouldn't you agree? wink


Originally Posted By: nleksan
To constantly put people down for exploring tbis seems backwards, and will only serve to keep people from speaking up about their experiences for.fear of being "bashed".

Of course.

At the same time, cheering people on just for putting in effort, regardless of their errors, is the same thing as allowing shiny pictures and strong convictions to stand in for good information. Bad information is worse than no information.

Besides, it would be better if people understand that criticizing what someone says is not the same thing as criticizing the person saying it.

As a "man of science," you should know these things. wink
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#2476800 - 12/29/11 09:25 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: 2k05gt]
Capa Online   content


Registered: 01/04/10
Posts: 1216
Loc: Oklahoma
Can I be a man of science?

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#2476819 - 12/29/11 09:41 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: 2k05gt]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4548
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
doodfood, I just think you are asking for too much given that this is an oil forum. If we were at work doing engineering or serious science, then sure, I'd say I want more, for the same reasons you mentioned. It can be very discouraging to people to post things they've done or observed when they think their findings or doings will be criticized for lack of very high scientific vigor. I think that when there is good in someone's efforts, shortcomings can be pointed out but care must be taken to not make the person's effort seem weak.

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#2476833 - 12/29/11 09:57 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: JAG]
DragRace Offline


Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 2327
Loc: 1/4 Mile Track
Originally Posted By: JAG
doodfood, I just think you are asking for too much given that this is an oil forum. If we were at work doing engineering or serious science, then sure, I'd say I want more, for the same reasons you mentioned. It can be very discouraging to people to post things they've done or observed when they think their findings or doings will be criticized for lack of very high scientific vigor. I think that when there is good in someone's efforts, shortcomings can be pointed out but care must be taken to not make the person's effort seem weak.


x2

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#2476841 - 12/29/11 10:01 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: 2k05gt]
nleksan Offline


Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 562
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
Hard to type full reply on my phone, but...
"...should know these things"
I am fully aware of all of the things you mentioned, it's Research Theory 101. Where I disagree is the approach and even necessity for constant proof. A person who only adheres to a strict set of rules is unlikely to ever make any revolutionary discoveries. Adhere to the spirit but never always to the rules, bc rules are written by humans and humans are the most fallible things of all. I find it best to ignore the rules and think outside the box, and then go through and vigorously test the theory to ensure it holds water. In my industry, we have between 5-8 thousand failures for every one success, so fresh approaches are welcomed. I think we would all be better off if we were able to realize the value in everything, rather than constantly criticizing things for the.values that they lack. There is such a thing as constructive criticism, and I have seen it in this thread, but I have also seen criticism simply for its own sake.
I hope this clarifies what my prior post intended to convey.
I will more thoroughly respond when I can do so with an actual keyboard smile
_________________________
00 328Ci(419rwhp/392rwtq) RL/Motul/OS Giken
06 M3 ZCP/6MT - RL
01 325i - RL/RP
03 M5 - RL
88 M6 (Eu) - RL
95 M5 (Eu) - RL

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#2476862 - 12/29/11 10:27 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: JAG]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9344
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: JAG
doodfood, I just think you are asking for too much given that this is an oil forum. If we were at work doing engineering or serious science, then sure, I'd say I want more, for the same reasons you mentioned. It can be very discouraging to people to post things they've done or observed when they think their findings or doings will be criticized for lack of very high scientific vigor. I think that when there is good in someone's efforts, shortcomings can be pointed out but care must be taken to not make the person's effort seem weak.

Fair points, JAG.

I agree that at this point, it seems as though the criticism has been harsh. From where I'm standing, that's because it has had to be repeated and elaborated so many times, and because the critics have had to defend themselves so much from being called fanboys, naysayers, etc. If you look at the whole thread, I'm sure you'll see that most of the reason this all has been blown out of proportion is that people either aren't reading fully or are grossly mischaracterizing what has been said.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#2476864 - 12/29/11 10:30 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: nleksan]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9344
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Where I disagree is the approach and even necessity for constant proof.

If you disagree with the necessity for people to prove that what they're saying has merit, I have a hard time imagining how a constructive conversation is possible.

If that's not what you meant, I look forward to reading your further clarification.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#2476890 - 12/29/11 11:01 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: d00df00d]
nleksan Offline


Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 562
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Where I disagree is the approach and even necessity for constant proof.

If you disagree with the necessity for people to prove that what they're saying has merit, I have a hard time imagining how a constructive conversation is possible.

If that's not what you meant, I look forward to reading your further clarification.


I said CONSTANT proof. It is things like this that are frustrating. This is what, the third time you have quoted me and twisted my words around enough that I have to post a rebuttal, even though I would be willing to bet that most people would have understood the point I was trying to make? English is not a very literal language, which is why people still spend lifetimes trying to understand Shakespeare, but it seems like every word is taken at its literal meaning here.
And for the record, I read this entire thread, and here is what I saw... A guy joins here to post his results with an oil, brings pictures too. Multiple people tell him to do this, which he does, but then those people are not satisfied and have him running all over, buying new tools, and enduring significanf downtime with his car, all because people just cannot be satisfied. After all of that, he is more or less told: "A" for effort, but it doesnt mean anything... Come back after you get an electron scanning microscope and can prove that M1 did worse at the atomic level, bc thats what really matters.

If M1 is so good and you are so confident in it that you are asking other people to spend money and time proving otherwise, why dont you take the valve covers off of your M3 and show us how m1 has done? I wish.my car wasnt in storage or I would do just that, but then again I havent asked anyone to provide proof beyond what can be expected over the internet.

I really do believe your intentions are good, but you come across as "holier than thou" the way you nitpick things to death. I have taken what you have said to heart, honestly, so remember that, well, if you are going to dish it out...

Also, the only place where constant proof is required for a conversation is, well, everywhere BUT the internet... People come here to get away from that, not to be forced to pick every single word with the utmost care lest they be flogged in public... That is NOT constructive.
_________________________
00 328Ci(419rwhp/392rwtq) RL/Motul/OS Giken
06 M3 ZCP/6MT - RL
01 325i - RL/RP
03 M5 - RL
88 M6 (Eu) - RL
95 M5 (Eu) - RL

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#2476894 - 12/29/11 11:06 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: nleksan]
DragRace Offline


Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 2327
Loc: 1/4 Mile Track
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Where I disagree is the approach and even necessity for constant proof.

If you disagree with the necessity for people to prove that what they're saying has merit, I have a hard time imagining how a constructive conversation is possible.

If that's not what you meant, I look forward to reading your further clarification.


I said CONSTANT proof. It is things like this that are frustrating. This is what, the third time you have quoted me and twisted my words around enough that I have to post a rebuttal, even though I would be willing to bet that most people would have understood the point I was trying to make? English is not a very literal language, which is why people still spend lifetimes trying to understand Shakespeare, but it seems like every word is taken at its literal meaning here.
And for the record, I read this entire thread, and here is what I saw... A guy joins here to post his results with an oil, brings pictures too. Multiple people tell him to do this, which he does, but then those people are not satisfied and have him running all over, buying new tools, and enduring significanf downtime with his car, all because people just cannot be satisfied. After all of that, he is more or less told: "A" for effort, but it doesnt mean anything... Come back after you get an electron scanning microscope and can prove that M1 did worse at the atomic level, bc thats what really matters.

If M1 is so good and you are so confident in it that you are asking other people to spend money and time proving otherwise, why dont you take the valve covers off of your M3 and show us how m1 has done? I wish.my car wasnt in storage or I would do just that, but then again I havent asked anyone to provide proof beyond what can be expected over the internet.

I really do believe your intentions are good, but you come across as "holier than thou" the way you nitpick things to death. I have taken what you have said to heart, honestly, so remember that, well, if you are going to dish it out...

Also, the only place where constant proof is required for a conversation is, well, everywhere BUT the internet... People come here to get away from that, not to be forced to pick every single word with the utmost care lest they be flogged in public... That is NOT constructive.


Again,agree!

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#2476918 - 12/29/11 11:41 PM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: nleksan]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11782
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: nleksan
If M1 is so good and you are so confident in it that you are asking other people to spend money and time proving otherwise, why dont you take the valve covers off of your M3 and show us how m1 has done? I wish.my car wasnt in storage or I would do just that, but then again I havent asked anyone to provide proof beyond what can be expected over the internet.


I think what's being missed here is why proof and evidence are so hard to come by. None of us, as individuals, have the resources or the time or the lifespan to properly test oils against each other while eliminating variables. Who among us can buy two brand new BMWs, for instance, and run one for hundreds of thousands of miles on RP 0w-40, and repeat the same with M1 0w-40, all the while ensuring that OCIs were the same, that filtration was the same, and keeping fuel quality and driving conditions the same?

That's why many of us are skeptical. You name any brand out there, and someone will claim a ringing success with the product, and someone else will claim a catastrophe. That's why we find it hard to believe when someone claims RP blew their engine or that RP reduced wear above and beyond what any other oil could do.

If someone's engine is sludged, the first thing they do is blame the oil, and ignore the fact that their PCV is plugged and has never seen the slightest bit of attention in the vehicle's lifespan. If someone's engine is clean, he may claim the oil did it all, regardless of the fact that he changed the oil every 3,000 miles or 3 months, or that he was meticulous with maintenance, and so forth.

That's why I do tend to rely on the various certification organizations and the oil companies' testing. All the big names and the top end boutiques make fine oil. I don't doubt that for a minute. Fanciful claims of any sort (eight times less wear, clean as factory) still have to be viewed with a critical eye.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2476944 - 12/30/11 12:27 AM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: nleksan]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9344
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: nleksan
I said CONSTANT proof.

I know what you said. EVERYTHING needs to be subject to some kind of demand for evidence, in proportion to the claim. I can't fathom why anything should be exempted.

As always, I'm open to being convinced. So far, what I've understood from you is that if someone puts a lot of effort into something, we should just accept it regardless of its validity. I don't agree, because I think that's counterproductive and patronizing.

You make a good point that criticism can be discouraging. In my experience, that's only true if you value what you believe over your search for truth. I don't, nor do I think anyone should -- although I am morally certain that I don't speak for most people on that point.


Originally Posted By: nleksan
It is things like this that are frustrating. This is what, the third time you have quoted me and twisted my words around enough that I have to post a rebuttal, even though I would be willing to bet that most people would have understood the point I was trying to make?

Welcome to my world. wink

What have I misunderstood? Spell it out for me.


Originally Posted By: nleksan
it seems like every word is taken at its literal meaning here.

Welcome to the Internet. There's no body language or tone of voice, so if you don't literally mean what you say, you are at an elevated risk of being misunderstood. Believe me, you're not the only one on this forum who has been endlessly frustrated by people reading things into your post that you didn't intend. Cough, cough. wink


Originally Posted By: nleksan
And for the record, I read this entire thread, and here is what I saw... A guy joins here to post his results with an oil, brings pictures too. Multiple people tell him to do this, which he does, but then those people are not satisfied and have him running all over, buying new tools, and enduring significanf downtime with his car, all because people just cannot be satisfied. After all of that, he is more or less told: "A" for effort, but it doesnt mean anything... Come back after you get an electron scanning microscope and can prove that M1 did worse at the atomic level, bc thats what really matters.

Factually incorrect.

The cams were out of the cars they came from, and sitting around. He took the pics and measured them when he got around to it. Zero downtime involved, and he barely even went out of his way.

The frustration was not with the OP, or with what he presented. The frustration was with people who took this thread as proof positive that Royal Purple had decisively outperformed Mobil 1, and either ignored or ridiculed any statement that disagreed.


Originally Posted By: nleksan
If M1 is so good and you are so confident in it that you are asking other people to spend money and time proving otherwise, why dont you take the valve covers off of your M3 and show us how m1 has done?

Because that's not what I think, and my engine has never seen Mobil 1 except for one quart of emergency top-off.

But if it makes you happy, here's a pic of my valvetrain: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...116#Post1621116


Originally Posted By: nleksan
I really do believe your intentions are good, but you come across as "holier than thou" the way you nitpick things to death.

You know, I get this a lot. But only ever from people who apparently see the demand for evidence as a luxury, a mystical aspect of science, or a weapon to be used against people you don't like...


Originally Posted By: nleksan
I have taken what you have said to heart, honestly, so remember that, well, if you are going to dish it out...

cheers


Originally Posted By: nleksan
Also, the only place where constant proof is required for a conversation is, well, everywhere BUT the internet... People come here to get away from that

Everything I have learned in life has taught me to be very, very leery of people who think that the demand for evidence is ever something to be gotten away from.

Then again, maybe that says something about why people use this website. You mentioned being constructive; what exactly are we trying to construct? Ostensibly, people participate on BITOG because they want in some way to figure out fact from fiction. If that's the case, the demand for evidence needs to be strong and pervasive, as does the spirit of debate. But if the real reason they participate is to shoot the breeze and agree with each other, then yes, debate and criticism would be very counterproductive indeed...
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#2477056 - 12/30/11 07:17 AM Re: Royal Purple Oil Experience - 2005 Mustang GT [Re: 2k05gt]
virginoil Offline


Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 1086
Loc: western australia
d00df00d

You have helped takes this thread to 45 pages.

Are you the evangelist that won every argument but lost every soul?


Edited by virginoil (12/30/11 07:20 AM)
_________________________
Hmmmmmmmmm now which tree/s in the Garden did He say I can eat from ?

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