2011 Honda Accord VCM V6; Factory Fill; 6,300 mi

[Indydriver]

First UOA post, finally figured it out LOL.

OK, I know you diehard UOA'ers don't think much of testing FF but here's why I did. First, all my life, I've been of the school to get that factory fill out of there within a 1000 miles. I've never liked the idea of all those metals circulating a full OCI. Second, this is the (in?)famous Honda VCM V6, the one that shuts down 2 or 3 cylinders everytime you let off the throttle. There have been numerous reports of excessive (and unacceptable to me) oil consumption in excess of 1qt/1000mi, including here on BITOG. [the engine burned 1/3qt during this interval] Honda announced new oil control rings and moly impregnated piston skirts for the 2011 VCM and I certainly hope that solves any problems they've been having. Third, at delivery, the dealer made a big deal insisting that the oil not be changed early, that is, before the MM hit 15%. The owner's manual backs this up with the same instruction. I changed it at 10%. So, I was very curious to see what was in this oil and what kind of shape it was in.

Interested in your observations....

 

[chubbs1]

They make such a big deal out it and the oil is really nothing special, the moly is the only reason I can think of unless they are testing a lower weight oil and want to see how it holds up, we all know that isn't the case.

I think this confirms (for me anyway) to go ahead and get the stuff out after 1k or so. There are plenty of lubes with high quality moly in them that would be fine in that engine.

 

[Indydriver]

Originally Posted By: chubbs1
I think this confirms (for me anyway) to go ahead and get the stuff out after 1k or so. There are plenty of lubes with high quality moly in them that would be fine in that engine.

This was my conclusion. How could it hurt anything to clean it up early and keep it clean before you start stretching the OCIs? I was a little surprised that [censored] suggested a longer intervals already.

Does anyone think that copper is high even for a FF? I don't recall seeing any that high.

LOL, I abbreviated BlackStone to two initials and it got censored.

 

[ChiTDI]

I don't feel the same from those results. The oil was almost spent (to me) at a 2 TBN. The flashpoint was below the desired spec, and that high moly count is by design. The manufacturer wants that in there. Going out to 7.5k has me scratching my head.
The use of a high moly replacement oil as Chubbs sugeested is spot on, though.
I'd run the replacement oil for the same interval and make sure the trend in all those wear metals is straight down.
Well broken in Honda engines are legendary for phenomenal UOAs and you want to make sure you are on that path.

 

[ChiTDI]

Originally Posted By: chubbs1
I think this confirms (for me anyway) to go ahead and get the stuff out after 1k or so. There are plenty of lubes with high quality moly in them that would be fine in that engine.

Copper could be high, but is it from wear, copper assembly lube, manifold gasket sealer, copper based thread lube, hard to tell.
Trend will tell.

 

[Indydriver]

Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
The use of a high moly replacement oil as Chubbs sugeested is spot on, though.I'd run the replacement oil for the same interval and make sure the trend in all those wear metals is straight down.Well broken in Honda engines are legendary for phenomenal UOAs and you want to make sure you are on that path.

I replaced with Honda Genuine Full Syn 0W-20 SN and OE filter in the spirit of covering all bases while under warranty. The VOAs on this COP oil are unremarkable showing ~100ppm moly and ~200ppm boron. Since then, I have obtained a case of Toyota SM 0W-20, a high moly oil that I may go to next.

 

[ChiTDI]

Good choice.
I think at 250 - 350 thousand miles from now, your actions will be rewarded. Enjoy the car.

 

[sir1900]

Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
The use of a high moly replacement oil as Chubbs sugeested is spot on, though.I'd run the replacement oil for the same interval and make sure the trend in all those wear metals is straight down.Well broken in Honda engines are legendary for phenomenal UOAs and you want to make sure you are on that path.

I replaced with Honda Genuine Full Syn 0W-20 SN and OE filter in the spirit of covering all bases while under warranty. The VOAs on this COP oil are unremarkable showing ~100ppm moly and ~200ppm boron. Since then, I have obtained a case of Toyota SM 0W-20, a high moly oil that I may go to next.


I too am thinking of going with the Toyota 0w20 in my 2012 Civic. I'm not so sure yet if I am going to do what many of you here are suggesting and to remove the FF early, or just wait for the OLM to show 15% which will likely be in about 7-7.5k. I remember in my old 08 Accord, the manual states that FF should remain for the full interval, but I can't seem to find the same recommendation in the Civic's manual.

 

[Artem]

I'm one of those to drain the FF early, to help flush out the metals but recent research into the matter shows that the reason why manufacturers want you to leave the oil in (besides dumping perfectly good oil early) is that the metal shavings help "scrub" all the engine internals to help with the break-in process and polish everything up, so to speak. It makes sense.

Having bumped the FF early in my last 3 cars bought New, all of which i still own, and seeing them run flawlessly and return excellent UOA reports, i see only benefits.

I guess it's government asking the manufacturers to tell the customers not to dump perfectly good oil early, which would be a huge waste, if everyone came to the dealership within 600 miles for an oil change. (Not counting the extra maintenance costs, when in reality, an oil change isn't really NEEDED)

Just my

 

[Bluestream]

I agree; No reason to dump perfectly good oil. Follow the Mfgr's recomdations, and the engine will last longer than you will.

 

[Patman]

Thanks for posting this UOA! I know a lot of people feel that doing a UOA on the FF is a waste of money, but I think it's very informative! It helps other people with the same vehicles decide on when they want to change out their FF, plus it gives a good starting point for the future, so you can watch the wear metals trend downwards and then you'll get a decent idea of when the engine is completely broken in.

I don't think we'll ever truly figure out whether or not an early change of the FF is beneficial or detrimental to the longevity of an engine. There really is no way we can truly ever know the answer to this question, and my gut feeling says the engine won't care either way!

I have owned 6 brand new cars, and in each case I did a very early oil change (IIRC, I have never gone more than 1000 miles on the factory fill, in some cases I've done the first change before 300 miles!) But if I were to buy a new car now I doubt I would do the first change that early. More than likely, I would do my first oil change when the oil life monitor showed 50% oil life. That's a good happy medium IMO.

 

[Artem]

I feel the same but it depends on the type of car. If it's a regular daily driver, i'd change the FF after a few thousand miles.

If it's something sporty, i'd still dump the FF @ 1,000 miles like i did all my cars thus far.

 

[Indydriver]

You are welcome Patman. I will continue to do UOAs on every change while it's under warranty or until I'm comfortable it's not going to have high oil consumption. So far, so good.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Indydriver
You are welcome Patman. I will continue to do UOAs on every change while it's under warranty or until I'm comfortable it's not going to have high oil consumption. So far, so good.


The Toyota 0w20 SN is the latest revision of the oil and is a better product that the SM. Yes, it has "less" moly, but it is likely using the Infineum trinuclear moly that is much more effective at lower concentrations.

The factory fill report is as I expected, a higher moly oil and the oil looks fine. There is a lot more fuel in there than I had hoped to see but it seems to be common nowadays.

 

[Artem]

Seeing as it's only running on like 3 cylinders half the time, i personally expected LESS fuel to turn up in the oil. Weird. Lol.

 

[JAG]

I wonder if these engines tend to have low oil temperatures, thereby increasing fuel dilution. What have the driving conditions been like and how long was car driven before the sample was taken?

 

[Indydriver]

The ratio of city vs. highway driving seems to be an important factor with those having oil consumption issues with this motor. Extended highway driving results in extended cylinder shut down which results in cold spots in the engine. When these "cold" cylinders reactivate, there is oil and fuel blowby resulting in plug fouling.

This particular unit is driven daily by my daughter who drives like a grandma. So 95% of the miles are city which seems to be better for the VCM as it is constantly cycling and therefore maintaining temperature.

 

[Indydriver]

JAG-the car was purchased in March so nine months of driving on this OCI. Like I said, nearly all city driving. She has about an 8 mi commute to work. The car is parked in an unheated garage, so it gets stone cold starts. On the day of the OC, she drove from her home to mine, about five miles, right up on the ramps. I don't know if that was a cold start or if she had been running errands prior.

 

[R2d2]

For what its worth I've had the same car for just over a year, and 28,000 miles on the odometer. My driving is 90% highway, I haven't experienced any oil consumption issues yet, and I keep an eye on it because of this reported issue. The changes they made to the 2011 may have eliminated this problem, time will tell, interesting uoa as well.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Artem
I'm one of those to drain the FF early, to help flush out the metals but recent research into the matter shows that the reason why manufacturers want you to leave the oil in (besides dumping perfectly good oil early) is that the metal shavings help "scrub" all the engine internals to help with the break-in process and polish everything up, so to speak. It makes sense.


Not to me. Metal contaminants don't scrub, AFAIK, they gouge and tear and scratch. If there is some new line of study that shows metal contamination is somehow good, I'd sure like to read thru it and understand better.

I thought this oil was decent for FF at 6300 miles.

My theory on this OE recommendation NOT to drain the FF too early is beginning to coalesce into a conspiratorial direction. I wonder if it's as much due a conservation motivation, possibly PC, as much as a real tribological reason. Hmmm? Where's my foil hat?

Perhaps, given the improvements in machining , clean assembly, better filtration, etc, that many of us are changing their oil TOO early, but based on the oil samples we've seen lately, seems to me a short (3000 mile) OCI is appropriate these days.