0 weight oils?

[Blaze]

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Why are we still talking about 0-weight oils? Do any even exist for normal vehicles?


No. As has been gone over many times before (even in this very thread) there is no such thing as a 0-weight oil.

0W-30 oil is a 30 weight oil. 0W-40 oil is a 40 weight oil.
and can be safely used in the HEAT of the summer!

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Why are we still talking about 0-weight oils? Do any even exist for normal vehicles?


No. As has been gone over many times before (even in this very thread) there is no such thing as a 0-weight oil.

0W-40 oil is a 40 weight oil.

Actually, it's a 40 grade. 40 is not a weight. SAE40 grade represents a whole range of possible viscosities/weights.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Why are we still talking about 0-weight oils? Do any even exist for normal vehicles?


No. As has been gone over many times before (even in this very thread) there is no such thing as a 0-weight oil.

Pretty much my point. I don't think anyone's listening, though.

 

[OnTheFence]

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Why are we still talking about 0-weight oils? Do any even exist for normal vehicles?


No. As has been gone over many times before (even in this very thread) there is no such thing as a 0-weight oil.

0W-30 oil is a 30 weight oil. 0W-40 oil is a 40 weight oil.


If a 10W-30 is a 10 weight oil with Viscosity improvers to make it the same as a straight 30 at 212. How is a 0w not the same?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: OnTheFence
If a 10W-30 is a 10 weight oil with Viscosity improvers to make it the same as a straight 30 at 212.

A 10w-30 is an oil that meets 10w cold pumpability specs and SAE 30 hot kinematic viscosity specs. That's it.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Blaze

and can be safely used in the HEAT of the summer!


For what its worth my liquid cooled fuel injected V4 safely
completed 10 summers worth of M1 10W30 not in moderation either... it
includes all day touring / track days / racing... and I plan on using
M1 0W30 this coming summer...

Peace of mind comes from the fact that flow and pressure are inverse
proportional... what that means is the relationship between pressure
and flow are in opposition... If I change my oil to a 40wt or 50wt the
pressure will increase but the flow decreases... if I change back to a
30w flow will increase and pressure will decrease... I believe an
increase in flow lubricates our high revving engines to a greater
degree than just building pressure... so what I desire in the summer
months is a 30wt that gives me 10psi per 1,000rpm... like at 7,000
rpms I see 70 psi on my digital gauge... at 11,500 red line I see 98
psi...

Go straight to jail velocity...

 

[ammolab]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Blaze

and can be safely used in the HEAT of the summer!


For what its worth my liquid cooled fuel injected V4 safely
completed 10 summers worth of M1 10W30 not in moderation either... it
includes all day touring / track days / racing... and I plan on using
M1 0W30 this coming summer...

Peace of mind comes from the fact that flow and pressure are inverse
proportional... what that means is the relationship between pressure
and flow are in opposition... If I change my oil to a 40wt or 50wt the
pressure will increase but the flow decreases... if I change back to a
30w flow will increase and pressure will decrease... I believe an
increase in flow lubricates our high revving engines to a greater
degree than just building pressure... so what I desire in the summer
months is a 30wt that gives me 10psi per 1,000rpm... like at 7,000
rpms I see 70 psi on my digital gauge... at 11,500 red line I see 98
psi...

Go straight to jail velocity...

This WOULD be true in a motor WITHOUT an oil pressure relief valve. Many Motorcyles "peg" the oil pressure relief valve at normal revs with just about any reasonable oil viscosity.Thus an increase in viscosity does NOT raise the pressure...it just drops the flow as the pressure relief valve opens.

 

[OldBaldy]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Blaze

and can be safely used in the HEAT of the summer!


For what its worth my liquid cooled fuel injected V4 safely
completed 10 summers worth of M1 10W30 not in moderation either...


FWIW, Larry, you should feel little reassurance that because the 10W-30 oil worked fine in your motor despite being lighter than the recommended (by Honda) 40/50 weight oil in summer, that you should go lighter still and use the ultra light 0W-30 fuel economy oil in your RC45.

The 0W-30 is a very thin oil when warm (and about 35% thinner than the oil viscosity range that Honda recommends, so you are charting unknown territory by selecting such a thin oil, especially in the summer months in Cali.

Like I suggested to you on the Zilla board, PLEASE do a series of UOAs on this oil at regular intervals during your OCI, and post the results. I truly hope you don't damage your lovely, rare, RC45's main and big-end bearings with this oil.

Barry.

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: OnTheFence

If a 10W-30 is a 10 weight oil with Viscosity improvers to make it the same as a straight 30 at 212. How is a 0w not the same?


Because there is no such thing as "0w" oil. "0w" is not a weight or grade, it is a description of how a particular oil performs at very low temperatures. The "10W" prefix is not an indication of the base oil weight used in an oil, it is merely an indication of how that oil performs at very low temperature. While some conventional 10W-30 oils might start with a 10 weight base oil and use VII's to thicken the oil when at operating temperature, 0W oils use higher weight base oil, using the natural excellent low temp pump-ability inherent in synthetic oils (along with the addition of pour point depressants) to achieve their low winter rating.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-103/

"A 10W-30 multi-grade mineral based oil is made from a 10 grade oil and has VI improvers added to thicken the product in a 212°F engine. It acts as a 30 grade oil when hot. It acts more as a 10 grade oil at startup... Let’s look at the make up of synthetic based oils. A 10W-30 synthetic oil is based on a 30 grade oil. This is unlike the counterpart mineral oil based on a 10 grade oil. There is no VI improver needed. The oil is already correct for the normal operating temperature of 212°F."

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
[/quote]

FWIW, Larry, you should feel little reassurance that because the 10W-30 oil worked fine in your motor despite being lighter than the recommended (by Honda) 40/50 weight oil in summer, that you should go lighter still and use the ultra light 0W-30 fuel economy oil in your RC45.

The 0W-30 is a very thin oil when warm (and about 35% thinner than the oil viscosity range that Honda recommends, so you are charting unknown territory by selecting such a thin oil, especially in the summer months in Cali.

Like I suggested to you on the Zilla board, PLEASE do a series of UOAs on this oil at regular intervals during your OCI, and post the results. I truly hope you don't damage your lovely, rare, RC45's main and big-end bearings with this oil.

Barry.


You're all heart Barry... I just want to kiss your bald head the way
you worry over Mr.RC45 but please divert your attention away from the
scary oil can labeling and on to the reality of the numbers so you'll
discover that I'm not using thinner oil at operating temp... according
to Mobil 1 Tech and BITOG a 0W30 and 10W30 are essential the same 30wt
oil its just the 0W30 thickens less when you turn your key off... this
is progress in our oils because now there is less wear during start up
during the hot or cold days...

Oil Type......Viscosity 75° F....Viscosity 212° F

Straight 30.......250.................10

10W-30............100.................10

0W-30..............56.................10

Straight 10........30..................6


Honda recommends either a 30 40 or 50 weight depending on
outside temp and not according to the 4 seasons... a 30wt is
recommended up to 95ºF out side temp... but even when the Sac
Valley temps go up another 5ºF where we ride is up in the
higher elevations where the out side temp is cooler by 5º to 15ºF...

Mercy Barry... as we discussed in Zilla... Blackstone Labs
has been a part of my plans even before we have come together
on this subject...

In conclusion I wouldn't loose any more sleep worrying over
my bearings during this summer protected by a 0W30... just
pick a mile mark when you think my $150 dollars in bearings
will need replacement and we'll go from there...

 

[OldBaldy]

Larry, good luck. Be sure to...

1. Post up some UOAs on the 0W-30 oil at the end of summer.
2. Review the recommended oil viscosity grade rcommended by Honda for the temps you ride in, probably 10C to 40C.
3. Look up the ACTUAL 100C oil viscosity rating for the recommended oil.
4. Compare that to the 100C oil visocity rating for the fuel saving 0W-30 M1 oil you like.
5. Realize that this oil is 35% thinner than Honda's recommendation.
6. Understand that ANY of these oils flows perfectly fine in the temps you ride in, at startup.
7. Realize that in your motor with plain bearings, the oil film IS the bearing....it's what separates the two steel bearing surfaces from touching. Any touching due to too thin an oil film, will result in galling, only temporarily averted by the last-ditch additive package such as ZDDP.
8. Realize that it is far, FAR, FAR better to avoid bearing surfaces touching than to incrementally increase cold flow which is actually perfectly FINE with the recommended oil viscosity in the first place.
9. Understand that an oil's advertised nominal grade (10W-30, 0W-30) etc is only a VERY rough indicator of it's ACTUAL viscosity.

Compare a Castrol Syntec 0W-30 (GC) viscosity to the M1 fuel economy 0W-30.....you think they're the same?

If you'd said you plan to use the GC in your RC45, instead of the M1 fuel economy 0W-30, I'd say you'd probably be OK. Personally, I'd not run even a thick 30W in summer in California, because I see MUCH more risk from insufficient bearing protection than advantage from a very miniscule increase in cold temp startup flow at 10C or so.

I'll tell you again, I think you have the right idea...use the thinnest oil you can to increase efficiency, improve cold startup flow, improve heat dissipation, etc but (and this is a very BIG but!)....ONLY to the extent that you are providing an oil that provides sufficient film strength and bearing / piston wear protection to avoid very high metal wear in your motor under high pressure, mid-summer, high hear conditions.

I firmly believe you are stretching the limit too far for your bike, with this oil, in your climate.

I look forward to your UOAs, especially with a few miles on the oil in temps above 30C.

I'm done now....as again, I've tried to get you to understand some of your assumptions are dubious at best.

Good luck.

 

[OnTheFence]

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: OnTheFence

If a 10W-30 is a 10 weight oil with Viscosity improvers to make it the same as a straight 30 at 212. How is a 0w not the same?


Because there is no such thing as "0w" oil. "0w" is not a weight or grade, it is a description of how a particular oil performs at very low temperatures. The "10W" prefix is not an indication of the base oil weight used in an oil, it is merely an indication of how that oil performs at very low temperature. While some conventional 10W-30 oils might start with a 10 weight base oil and use VII's to thicken the oil when at operating temperature, 0W oils use higher weight base oil, using the natural excellent low temp pump-ability inherent in synthetic oils (along with the addition of pour point depressants) to achieve their low winter rating.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-103/

"A 10W-30 multi-grade mineral based oil is made from a 10 grade oil and has VI improvers added to thicken the product in a 212°F engine. It acts as a 30 grade oil when hot. It acts more as a 10 grade oil at startup... Let’s look at the make up of synthetic based oils. A 10W-30 synthetic oil is based on a 30 grade oil. This is unlike the counterpart mineral oil based on a 10 grade oil. There is no VI improver needed. The oil is already correct for the normal operating temperature of 212°F."


So.. all 0w-xx oils are sythetictic?

 

[OnTheFence]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: OnTheFence
If a 10W-30 is a 10 weight oil with Viscosity improvers to make it the same as a straight 30 at 212.

A 10w-30 is an oil that meets 10w cold pumpability specs and SAE 30 hot kinematic viscosity specs. That's it.


OK so a 10w-30 starts out as an oil with a grade of something and then has other stuff added right? Are we adding things to a 30 grade to make ip pump better in cold temps or are we adding to a 10 grade that makes it flow the same as a straight 30 grade?

 

[Mik]

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
Compare a Castrol Syntec 0W-30 (GC) viscosity to the M1 fuel economy 0W-30.....you think they're the same?

If you'd said you plan to use the GC in your RC45, instead of the M1 fuel economy 0W-30, I'd say you'd probably be OK.


GC is one of the few oils to withstand the beating that Sunruh submitted it to in his YZ250F (see motorycle UOA section). It is probably the only 0W30 that could be used in such an application (in fact, it seems a few folks use it in bikes with great success).

Now back to our regularly scheduled Larry-ish single-tracked mind.....

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: ammolab

This WOULD be true in a motor WITHOUT an oil pressure relief valve. Many Motorcyles "peg" the oil pressure relief valve at normal revs with just about any reasonable oil viscosity.Thus an increase in viscosity does NOT raise the pressure...it just drops the flow as the pressure relief valve opens.


Technically speaking thicker oils have more resistance than thinner
oils for all situations... The oil is thicker, has more internal
resistance and therefore requires more pressure to get the same flow
everything else being the same in my engine).

Quote BITOG
Increasing the pressure while using the same oil will
increase the oil flow but increasing the pressure by increasing the
oil thickness will result in less flow. It takes more pressure to move
a thicker oil. When you go to a thicker oil the pressure goes up
because of the increased resistance, and therefore reduction of flow.
Because the pressure is higher sooner, the relief valve cuts in
sooner. Flow will actually be less when the RPM is up and the flow is
needed the most.

“Pressure and flow are tied together with viscosity, but none have
anything to do with lubrication. Lubrication is a property of the
fluid, not the force. The oil pump would pump water just as well, but
it would offer no real lubrication. If we double the pressure, we
double the flow. If you decrease the viscosity to a lighter oil, you
increase flow at a loss of pressure. High flow helps to carry away
more heat. High pressure helps to keep metal parts like the bearings
out of contact with each other (scuffing).”

This increased flow will result in increased cooling by the oil. This
is a good thing. You would probably want more oil flow in these
situations and you get it. The hotter oil thins and this increases
flow. The higher flow works harder to separate the engine parts that
are under very high stress. It all works out for the better. Higher
revving engines need thinner oils. You do not necessarily need to go
to a thicker oil while racing. Only experimentation will tell.

The best way I could verify that my viscosity of choice is
within recommendations was to install a digital oil pressure
gauge and ride my bike in the real world conditions and note
if my oil viscosity gives 10 PSI per 1,000 RPM under both
winter and summer circumstances... so far 0W30 has passed that requirement... UOV is the next hurdle...

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: OnTheFence
OK so a 10w-30 starts out as an oil with a grade of something and then has other stuff added right? Are we adding things to a 30 grade to make ip pump better in cold temps or are we adding to a 10 grade that makes it flow the same as a straight 30 grade?

...Or are we just using a base stock that meets the spec without needing anything added? Or are we blending multiple base oils such that no single base oil is in the majority?

It could be any of the above. There are many ways to get the job done.

By the same token, the larger point is that the viscosity grade tells you very little about what an engine oil is made of and how it will work. As always, you have to look at the whole package.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy


I'll tell you again, I think you have the right idea...use the thinnest oil you can to increase efficiency, improve cold startup flow, improve heat dissipation, etc but (and this is a very BIG but!)....ONLY to the extent that you are providing an oil that provides sufficient film strength and bearing / piston wear protection to avoid very high metal wear in your motor under high pressure, mid-summer, high hear conditions.


Thanks Barry... now you and I are thinking alike...

 

[KernelK]

Busy,

What are your oil change intervals with the M1 oils. How do your cams appear to be wearing?

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: KernelK
Busy,

What are your oil change intervals with the M1 oils. How do your cams appear to be wearing?


I change my oil in the spring right before I launch for
MotoGp at Laguna Seca... but mileage varies between 3,000 to
5,000... its not weather that keeps me form riding its
whether I can afford a ticket or not...

Mr.RC45 cams at 50K mile mark... I mic them when I checked
the shims and recorded no wear what so ever...

OK sir just give me the ticket and stop with Vroom Vrooms...

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: OnTheFence

So.. all 0w-xx oils are sythetictic?


Synthetic or synthetic blend, yes. No straight conventional oil can meet the 0w winter spec.