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#2444464 - 11/25/11 10:50 AM 5w-30 cst
semaj281 Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 359
Loc: Suwanee, GA
Do car manufacturers know the fact that 5w-30s (besides PAOs) shear to a 20w by then end of the OCI?

Since I can't quite justify spending the money on Amsoil or Redline, I was pondering on the idea of running a Group III 10w-30 in my 2009 Nissan that call for 5w-30. And I wouldn't hesitate to use it in my Ford that calls for 5w-20 after seeing the UOA thread where the OP used 5w-20 in his Mustang.

I live in an area where it's above 32F at least 11 months out of the year, so the cold start benefits of a 5w probably aren't seen anyway.


Edited by semaj281 (11/25/11 11:01 AM)
_________________________
09 Nissan Versa S Hatchback - Mobil1 SN 5w-30 and NAPA Gold filter
08 Ford Mustang GT/CS - Castrol Edge 5w-30 and Motorcraft filter

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#2444484 - 11/25/11 11:22 AM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: semaj281]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9322
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
First oil shear is not as common as it once was with the higher quality VIIs that are used today in top brand oils.

Secondly, when a manufacturer spec's an oil or oil grade there is an allowance of at least 15% for viscosity loss before the oil would be condemned.

Thirdly, the low VI 10W-30 grade is largely obsolete with synthetic oils since the 5W-30 grade is so shear resistant.
Buying a syn' 10W-30 is therefore a poor value.

Forthly, the main advantage of 5W oils over 10W oils is their higher VI meaning they are lighter on start-up at all temp's not just below freezing. And that also is the main benefit of 0W oil over 5w oils; this advantage aplies even in the summer.

Finally using a 30wt oil when a 20wt is specified acheives nothing other than reduced performance, lower fuel economy and increased wear on start-up.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#2444485 - 11/25/11 11:24 AM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: semaj281]
barlowc Offline


Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 2032
Loc: Southeast Michigan
Originally Posted By: semaj281
the fact that 5w-30s (besides PAOs) shear to a 20w by then end of the OCI?

Really, that's fact? Different 5W-30 oils shear more or less and it's different per vehicle/engine too. For example, in my Nissan's QR25DE, Castrol EDGE (i.e. original formula) sheared more than Pennzoil Ultra. However, the UOAs I had done showed them both to be in-grade still.
_________________________
2013 Cadillac ATS
- 2.0T RWD 6AT, 20K Miles
- Dealer Fill (5W-30 dexos1) w/ OE Filter

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#2444493 - 11/25/11 11:34 AM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: barlowc]
chubbs1 Offline


Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 4574
Loc: Merritt Island FL, USA
Originally Posted By: barlowc
Originally Posted By: semaj281
the fact that 5w-30s (besides PAOs) shear to a 20w by then end of the OCI?

Really, that's fact? Different 5W-30 oils shear more or less and it's different per vehicle/engine too. For example, in my Nissan's QR25DE, Castrol EDGE (i.e. original formula) sheared more than Pennzoil Ultra. However, the UOAs I had done showed them both to be in-grade still.


How do you know they sheared more? Castrol Edge (SM) 5w30 is thinner than PU or PP in the first place. Did you do look at the starting 40c and 100c viscosities? Just checking;)
_________________________
'12 Charger SXT
QSUD 5w30 OEM filter

'12 Charger SXT
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'11 Hyundai Sonata GLS
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#2444498 - 11/25/11 11:41 AM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: chubbs1]
barlowc Offline


Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 2032
Loc: Southeast Michigan
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
How do you know they sheared more? Castrol Edge (SM) 5w30 is thinner than PU or PP in the first place. Did you do look at the starting 40c and 100c viscosities? Just checking;)

Yep, I compared against their spec viscosities. While EDGE is a little thinner to begin with, the Ultra stayed closer to spec.
_________________________
2013 Cadillac ATS
- 2.0T RWD 6AT, 20K Miles
- Dealer Fill (5W-30 dexos1) w/ OE Filter

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#2444502 - 11/25/11 11:43 AM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: barlowc]
semaj281 Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 359
Loc: Suwanee, GA
Originally Posted By: barlowc
Originally Posted By: semaj281
the fact that 5w-30s (besides PAOs) shear to a 20w by then end of the OCI?

Really, that's fact? Different 5W-30 oils shear more or less and it's different per vehicle/engine too. For example, in my Nissan's QR25DE, Castrol EDGE (i.e. original formula) sheared more than Pennzoil Ultra. However, the UOAs I had done showed them both to be in-grade still.

Most Group III oils failed to maintain viscosity by the time they were drained. I saw your UOA with the EDGE, and your cst was at 8.9. A cst of <9.3 means the oil is a 20w.

These are UOAs and observations that show how easily they shear.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...;page=2#2094467

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1902754

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1931561

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1578935&page=1
_________________________
09 Nissan Versa S Hatchback - Mobil1 SN 5w-30 and NAPA Gold filter
08 Ford Mustang GT/CS - Castrol Edge 5w-30 and Motorcraft filter

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#2444505 - 11/25/11 11:45 AM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: chubbs1]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9322
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
Originally Posted By: barlowc
[quote=semaj281]

Castrol Edge (SM) 5w30 is thinner than PU or PP in the first place. Did you do look at the starting 40c and 100c viscosities? Just checking;)

Sorry to be pedantic but we don't really know how thick or thin Castrol Edge is compared to other oils of the same grade since they don't provide HTHSV spec's. A lower KV100 spec' could mean it's lighter at operating temp's but not if it's HTHSV is the same or higher.
That's a big negative with Castrol NA, they don't provide much technical info' on their oils.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#2444506 - 11/25/11 11:47 AM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: CATERHAM]
semaj281 Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 359
Loc: Suwanee, GA
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Finally using a 30wt oil when a 20wt is specified acheives nothing other than reduced performance, lower fuel economy and increased wear on start-up.

Not in all cases.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2407921

I'm starting to believe the 20wt specification for the Modular Fords was made solely for CAFE reasons.
_________________________
09 Nissan Versa S Hatchback - Mobil1 SN 5w-30 and NAPA Gold filter
08 Ford Mustang GT/CS - Castrol Edge 5w-30 and Motorcraft filter

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#2444508 - 11/25/11 11:49 AM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: semaj281]
barlowc Offline


Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 2032
Loc: Southeast Michigan
Originally Posted By: semaj281
I saw your UOA with the EDGE, and your cst was at 8.9. A cst of <9.3 means the oil is a 20w

My bad. I was thinking the Blackstone range stayed within grade but is apparently represents "normal" shearing. Thanks for correcting!
_________________________
2013 Cadillac ATS
- 2.0T RWD 6AT, 20K Miles
- Dealer Fill (5W-30 dexos1) w/ OE Filter

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#2444509 - 11/25/11 11:50 AM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: semaj281]
Drew99GT Offline


Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 20531
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: semaj281


I'm starting to believe the 20wt specification for the Modular Fords was made solely for CAFE reasons.


Even if it was, it certainly hasn't caused harm to Ford engines.

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#2444515 - 11/25/11 11:57 AM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: barlowc]
semaj281 Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 359
Loc: Suwanee, GA
Originally Posted By: barlowc
Originally Posted By: semaj281
I saw your UOA with the EDGE, and your cst was at 8.9. A cst of <9.3 means the oil is a 20w

My bad. I was thinking the Blackstone range stayed within grade but is apparently represents "normal" shearing. Thanks for correcting!

I'm not a tribologist on any level so I may be wrong about the 9.3 threshold. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
_________________________
09 Nissan Versa S Hatchback - Mobil1 SN 5w-30 and NAPA Gold filter
08 Ford Mustang GT/CS - Castrol Edge 5w-30 and Motorcraft filter

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#2444522 - 11/25/11 12:04 PM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: semaj281]
XS650 Offline



Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 12385
Loc: Northern CA
Originally Posted By: semaj281

I'm not a tribologist on any level so I may be wrong about the 9.3 threshold. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


Google SAE J300 for the numbers if you forget.
_________________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

--Mark Twain

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#2444528 - 11/25/11 12:13 PM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: semaj281]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9322
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
That UOA is in new Mustang that's still shedding Fe and other metals and will show higher than normal elemental numbers. Nevertheless the UOA is not bad.
You can conclude nothing fom one UOA, least of all that the oil was too light.

The proper way to determine the correct viscosity is with oil pressure and temperature gauges. The info derived from that will tell you the lowest actual operational viscosity that occurred in the engine and how much of a safety margin you have compared to the manufacturer's minimum spec's.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#2444529 - 11/25/11 12:16 PM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: XS650]
barlowc Offline


Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 2032
Loc: Southeast Michigan
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: semaj281

I'm not a tribologist on any level so I may be wrong about the 9.3 threshold. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


Google SAE J300 for the numbers if you forget.

semaj281 is correct. For a 30 grade, the range is 9.3 to 12.5. For a 20 grade it's 5.6 to 9.3. At least according to this paper.
_________________________
2013 Cadillac ATS
- 2.0T RWD 6AT, 20K Miles
- Dealer Fill (5W-30 dexos1) w/ OE Filter

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#2444678 - 11/25/11 04:14 PM Re: 5w-30 cst [Re: CATERHAM]
semaj281 Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 359
Loc: Suwanee, GA
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
First oil shear is not as common as it once was with the higher quality VIIs that are used today in top brand oils.


What are some of the "top brands" that have higher quality VIIs? Do all of today's SN oils fit this category?
_________________________
09 Nissan Versa S Hatchback - Mobil1 SN 5w-30 and NAPA Gold filter
08 Ford Mustang GT/CS - Castrol Edge 5w-30 and Motorcraft filter

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