Recent Topics
Warranty Facts
by BrianC
10/24/14 07:32 PM
2010 Honda Pilot, 3.5, 30k on engine, 5,4k on QSUD
by p1zippie
10/24/14 06:32 PM
THE BABY SKUNK
by Charlie1935
10/24/14 06:04 PM
Affixing brackets to fiberglass
by Apollo14
10/24/14 05:17 PM
Brakes on the "Bluesmobile" - the final update
by GreeCguy
10/24/14 03:47 PM
Liquid Moly
by Pelican
10/24/14 03:43 PM
New altitude world record parachute jump
by Drew99GT
10/24/14 02:30 PM
Replacing Valve Stem Seals, Honda or Aftermarket?
by zpinch
10/24/14 02:28 PM
Saw Mercedes out testing the Concept Coupe SUV
by 01rangerxl
10/24/14 02:24 PM
high speed wipers
by hardcore302
10/24/14 01:59 PM
does one need all 4 winter tires?
by hardcore302
10/24/14 01:53 PM
Bosch Icon Wipers
by gpguy
10/24/14 01:41 PM
Newest Members
Hox, massbrad, jtrix, SR1919, bigdaveyl
51684 Registered Users
Who's Online
96 registered (901Memphis, 01_celica_gt, andyd, 77GrandPrix, 10 invisible), 1625 Guests and 227 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
51684 Members
64 Forums
221159 Topics
3496641 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG

Topic Options
#2388223 - 09/26/11 09:52 AM Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils
Turkeybaster115 Offline


Registered: 03/24/10
Posts: 35
Loc: Illinois
I bought a 335I leased by a guy who worked at the stealership with about 35K miles on the clock. After assuming ownership, I started using total engine oils (quartz 0W30, 10W50, Ineo MC3 5W30) with an oil change at 8,500 miles + motor flush. My car didn't have an oil cooler and ran hot during the summer (240-266F). I drove mostly highway miles at about 400+ per week. I took off my oil filter housing at 68K miles, and sold it to a guy who sold me his which had the thermostat and oil cooler.

From 35-60K miles, my oil filter housing had quite a bit of sludge and soot on the outside, and layers of soot on the inside piping. His in contrast was clean on the outside, and on the inside piping. I asked what oil he ran, and to my surprise, he had been running castrol syntec 5w30 for 38K miles, with oil changes every 5,000 miles. He also didn't clean his oil filter housing before selling it to me.

I now am seriously re-thinking the conventional thinking on motor oils that I picked up on BITOG, and the BMW forums. People are obsessed with oil analysis, and oil approvals. I thought that I would be ok with 8.5K mile oil intervals in this engine, with the motor flush as added protection, but now I think I was wrong. during the summer months after my long daily commutes to work, I would pop the hood and see the oil (sludge) boiling and bubbling out of the oil filter housing cover. This would only start happening after the oil was run for more than 7.5K miles. This is how the sludge and soot built up on the outside and inside. So it would seem that unapproved semi-synthetic generic castrol syntec, changed at 5K miles is superior to these heavily approved, synthetic based oils run for more than 7.5K miles!


Edited by Turkeybaster115 (09/26/11 09:56 AM)

Top
#2388236 - 09/26/11 10:05 AM Re: Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils [Re: Turkeybaster115]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
So it would seem that unapproved semi-synthetic generic castrol syntec, changed at 5K miles is superior to these heavily approved, synthetic based oils run for more than 7.5K miles!

Aren't you jumping to the wrong conclusion here? Based on the information you provided, it would seem that the added oil cooler was making the difference and not the oil.

Did your oil temps drop after you installed the new filter housing with the oil cooler? Did you try running your oil up to 8.5K miles again with this new oil cooler in place?

Also, was he running the generic Syntec 5w-30 or the BMW Castrol 5w-30 which some people call Castrol Syntec as well? Regardless, I don't think it's the oil, but rather a cooling issue that you may or may not have resolved.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#2388243 - 09/26/11 10:10 AM Re: Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils [Re: Quattro Pete]
Turkeybaster115 Offline


Registered: 03/24/10
Posts: 35
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
So it would seem that unapproved semi-synthetic generic castrol syntec, changed at 5K miles is superior to these heavily approved, synthetic based oils run for more than 7.5K miles!

Aren't you jumping to the wrong conclusion here? Based on the information you provided, it would seem that the added oil cooler was making the difference and not the oil.

Did your oil temps drop after you installed the new filter housing with the oil cooler? Did you try running your oil up to 8.5K miles again with this new oil cooler in place?

Also, was he running the generic Syntec 5w-30 or the BMW Castrol 5w-30? Since he works at the dealership, he probably got a good discount on this oil, so he may have been just using that. Regardless, I don't think it's the oil, but rather a cooling issue that you may or may not have resolved.


I guess I didn't fully explain this, as It's a lot to write up, and I wasn't totally clear. Ok, so first of all the guy who leased it at the stealership, and the guy who I got the oil cooler filter housing from are two completely different guys. The guy with the housing ran regular autozone castrol syntec 5W30, which is different from the 5W30 that the stealership runs.

Secondly, after installing the oil cooler, my temps would still reach 265F in the summer, on my long highway commutes. Takes a tad longer to reach those temps (thermostat opens at 230F and is fully opened at 260F, so there is a pause at 230F, then the temps keep rising), but it did get up there.

The big difference here is: how long the oil was run, not what type of approval the oil has, or the results of oil analysis at high change intervals.


Edited by Turkeybaster115 (09/26/11 10:14 AM)

Top
#2388245 - 09/26/11 10:13 AM Re: Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils [Re: Turkeybaster115]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
Ok, so first of all the guy who leased it at the stealership, and the guy who I got the oil cooler filter housing from are two completely different guys.

Yeah, I missed that initially. Sorry about the confusion.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#2388284 - 09/26/11 11:08 AM Re: Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils [Re: Turkeybaster115]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 8594
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115

.... thermostat opens at 230F and is fully opened at 260F, so there is a pause at 230F, then the temps keep rising), but it did get up there.
This is the design intent? Seems too hot for oil sump and coolant temps. Are you pushing the car hard to acheive that sump temp? What is the coolant system pressure, 3 bar? I might assume this is the twin turbo. My last Bimmer was a '98 M roadster.


Edited by ARCOgraphite (09/26/11 11:09 AM)
_________________________
2014 Nissan Note S 5MT, OC#1 1630mi-PGB 5W30+NISSAN Mexico 65F0C Filter
2015 Forester 6MT 5Door, OC#1 4361mi-VSP 0W20(?)+ Blue service "FRAM" Filter

Top
#2388288 - 09/26/11 11:16 AM Re: Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils [Re: Turkeybaster115]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
(thermostat opens at 230F and is fully opened at 260F,

Is this normal? Have you checked on some BMW forum on this?

What does your coolant temp stay at when oil is at 260F?
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#2388301 - 09/26/11 11:30 AM Re: Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils [Re: Turkeybaster115]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26446
Loc: Ontario, Canada
So, you only used Total oils.... changed them at 8.5K mile intervals. He used Castrol (who also makes the BMW oil) Syntec at a much shorter interval and his was clean, yours wasn't?

I don't think you can draw much if any sort of conclusion about the BMW LL-01 oils based on this because you only ran one brand for starters.

There are a pile of 'em out there, Mobil 1 0w40 being the most common talked about here as of late, prior to that, it would have been GC 0w30. A Castrol oil.

I have no idea what the OCI's on my M5 were when I bought it. I assume it was dealer maintained based on the info in the manual. That means it probably saw BMW 5w30 at the maintenance minder intervals.

It is pretty clean:




And you talk about the outside of your filter canister being covered in sludge. Your o-ring was leaking? Was the cap cracked?

Yours looks like mine right?

_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
06 Charger R/T

Top
#2388426 - 09/26/11 01:38 PM Re: Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils [Re: OVERKILL]
Turkeybaster115 Offline


Registered: 03/24/10
Posts: 35
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
So, you only used Total oils.... changed them at 8.5K mile intervals. He used Castrol (who also makes the BMW oil) Syntec at a much shorter interval and his was clean, yours wasn't?


Castrol makes the BMW oil, but the BMW oil is very different from the cheap castrol syntec sold at Napa, autozone, o'rieley, etc. That castrol syntec isn't BMW approved, and is a $5 semi-synthetic.

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I don't think you can draw much if any sort of conclusion about the BMW LL-01 oils based on this because you only ran one brand for starters. There are a pile of 'em out there, Mobil 1 0w40 being the most common talked about here as of late, prior to that, it would have been GC 0w30. A Castrol oil. I have no idea what the OCI's on my M5 were when I bought it. I assume it was dealer maintained based on the info in the manual. That means it probably saw BMW 5w30 at the maintenance minder intervals.It is pretty clean:And you talk about the outside of your filter canister being covered in sludge. Your o-ring was leaking? Was the cap cracked? Yours looks like mine right?


You don't want me to draw conclusions about LL01 oils, despite the fact that I have done somewhat of a very controlled study on one. Instead you want me to compare your NA V8 to my twin turbo I6? yeah, that's pretty logical. While your M5 might stroke your ego, keep in mind that your engine is no where near as tough on oil as mine. I mean, my daily coolant temps are a good 40 degrees hotter than your oil temps. The middle of my oil gauge reads 250F, where the needle settles even on short street commutes. What's yours? :rolleyes:

My old oil filter housing (note that the inside of the pipe at the top has a nice layer of soot. Note the sludge all over the outside)


The kids oil filter housing (no sludge anywhere, and see that pipe at the bottom there? The inside is Totally clean)



Edited by Turkeybaster115 (09/26/11 01:39 PM)

Top
#2388436 - 09/26/11 01:52 PM Re: Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils [Re: Turkeybaster115]
Turkeybaster115 Offline


Registered: 03/24/10
Posts: 35
Loc: Illinois
What I'm challenging the forum to realize is that a $5/quart semi synthetic changed at 5K miles is much better at soot, and sludge control, than an $8-12/quart synthetic, changed at 8.5K miles. This should be pretty obvious, but if you spent time reading the stuff about oils on BITOG, or my BMW forums, as I did, you would come away thinking that you should only run expensive synthetic (POA based) oils with your vehicle's approval. Also, these highly certified oils are just fine at very high change intervals, because "we have seen the used oil analysis".

Apparently, the truth is that while the oils in the second example may still be serviceable after very high miles, if you're going to run any oil over 5K intervals in a DI euro motor, save up some money for an engine tare down and cleaning at some point down the road. Also the difference in engine protection between the cheap semi-synthetics, and heavily certified synthetic oils at 5K miles may or may not be negligible.


Edited by Turkeybaster115 (09/26/11 01:54 PM)

Top
#2388448 - 09/26/11 02:01 PM Re: Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils [Re: Turkeybaster115]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
What I'm challenging the forum to realize is that a $5/quart semi synthetic changed at 5K miles is much better at soot, and sludge control, than an $8-12/quart synthetic, changed at 8.5K miles.

So have you actually run Castrol Syntec 5w-30 in your car prior to oil filter housing replacement at 5K intervals and this resulted in no sludge? If not, then you can't come to this conclusion. All you know is that on another car with a different oil cooling design this Castrol Syntec ran fine for 5K miles. But you have no way of knowing if an LL01 oil ran at 8.5K miles would have resulted in sludge on that other car.

Also, Castrol Syntec 5w-30 is not semi synthetic. Group III synthetic would be the correct term to use here. Semi synthetic means synthetic blend. By the way, BMW 5w-30 (LL01) oil is also Group III. Group III oils have no problem meeting LL01 spec. The reason Syntec 5w-30 doesn't meet it is because it was designed with different priorities in mind (fuel economy, low HTHS).



_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#2388463 - 09/26/11 02:16 PM Re: Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils [Re: Turkeybaster115]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1288
Loc: Atlanta,GA
How long did you run the 10w-50?
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

Top
#2388472 - 09/26/11 02:24 PM Re: Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils [Re: Turkeybaster115]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Also, what is this "motor flush" thing that you were using? What is its composition and how was it applied?

I know you want to blame the oil, but in my opinion, there are too many other variables here to draw any kind of solid conclusion. Sorry if this disappoints you.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#2388702 - 09/26/11 05:44 PM Re: Castrol Syntec 5W30 vs all BMW LL01 oils [Re: Turkeybaster115]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26446
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115

Castrol makes the BMW oil, but the BMW oil is very different from the cheap castrol syntec sold at Napa, autozone, o'rieley, etc. That castrol syntec isn't BMW approved, and is a $5 semi-synthetic.


I am aware that the oils are different. Point to where I said otherwise. And while syntec 5w30 is not LL-01 approved, it doesn't mean it is not a good lubricant. Nor is it "semi-synthetic". Their syntec 0w30 on the other hand IS LL-01 approved and available off the shelf as well.

The BMW 5w30 has a high HTHS value. The Syntec 5w30 does not meet the spec based on the fact alone that its HTHS isn't high enough. That doesn't make it an inferior product.



Quote:
You don't want me to draw conclusions about LL01 oils, despite the fact that I have done somewhat of a very controlled study on one. Instead you want me to compare your NA V8 to my twin turbo I6? yeah, that's pretty logical. While your M5 might stroke your ego, keep in mind that your engine is no where near as tough on oil as mine. I mean, my daily coolant temps are a good 40 degrees hotter than your oil temps. The middle of my oil gauge reads 250F, where the needle settles even on short street commutes. What's yours? :rolleyes:


Classy use of condescension. I appreciate it.

Moving right along: I have seen M5 engines (I know, I know, they aren't comparable because they don't have 11-billion degree oil temps like you have) that don't look very nice under the valve cover, even running the coveted TWS 10w60. There are many factors that can lead to how clean (or the lack thereof) an engine stays during its life.

You also didn't own the car since new. Did you check these areas when you first bought the car to see if this build-up had accrued during the previous owner's tenure behind the wheel, rather than your own?

You also didn't answer my question about the O-ring on the filter housing. I'm curious as to why you have "bubbling sludge" here.

My comments regarding cleanliness were in no way meant to detract from the fact that a twin-turbo I6 is hard on oil. My highest oil temps are probably around 210F. It usually gets to around 200F on my way to work. Your environment is obviously much harsher. However, as I indicated earlier, I have seen some pretty nasty looking engines that were run on "approved" oils, whilst some others, run on the same oil, that look pristine. I was trying to (nicely) point out that even though an oil has an LL-01 approval, it doesn't mean that it is going to do as well at things like engine cleanliness as another that has the same approval.

Regarding the housing, do you have pics showing where the leaks were coming from rather than just the build-up? That's why I posted the engine bay shot (do you have one?) that shows the front of the housing, which is where I was getting the impression you were seeing this "bubbling".
_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
06 Charger R/T

Top