Ford is putting a OEM Re-manufactured 4R100 in my Navigator. They couldn't get reverse to stop making a major clunking noise when shifting. My question is, is there anything I should make sure the dealer does before taking the truck back? Break-in, should I do anything special? Also, when should I replace the fluid the first time, miles wise? Truck averages alot of around town driving, about 7K miles per year. Thanks.
Remanufactured OEM Ford Transmission 04 Navigator
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Strange problem for a 4R100, I know AWD Expeditions had some issues with the NP transfer case and 2WD models had a slip joint issue that caused a bad clunk.
Was the issue only going into reverse? AWD or 2WD?
Please keep us posted on this for the sake of info.
I would go 10K then drop the pan and do a line off fluid exchange, The filter is a rock catcher so don't bother with that, this will let you see if there are any unusual particles and get any initial wear particles out of the pan, rebuilds tend to shed a bit more than a new unit.
Use a high quality fluid like Amsoil ATF and put 2 bottles of Lubeguard red in it.
Was the issue only going into reverse? AWD or 2WD?
Please keep us posted on this for the sake of info.
I would go 10K then drop the pan and do a line off fluid exchange, The filter is a rock catcher so don't bother with that, this will let you see if there are any unusual particles and get any initial wear particles out of the pan, rebuilds tend to shed a bit more than a new unit.
Use a high quality fluid like Amsoil ATF and put 2 bottles of Lubeguard red in it.
Have them install a return cooler line oil filter.
That used to be part of a reman trans job until Ford decided to save money and delete it from the kit.... but it still should be part of a reman and many shops still do it. If there is any failure contaminants, they often lodge in the cooler (pretty hard to flush it all) or just general crud can build up there and the filter will catch it before it does harm. It's a good prophylactic too just for normal wear and can extend the life of the oil and the trans.
Ford used to have major trouble with remains failing due to contamination due to built in dirt from the reman process combined with failure junk and in the '90s instituted the return line filter program that, according to my reliable sources, dropped the failure rate from significant double digits to low single digits. From what I understand, a major portion of the problems came from techs who didn't perform the required cooler line flushes, or did them improperly, but they found even a flush will not guarantee all the junk will be removed.
There are several SAE white papers (I have referenced them in previous "soap box" sessions you can find searching my posts if you want more detail) that have the results of numerous studies done on thousands of transmissions since the '80s that indicate a new or reman tranny will generate 75 percent of it's lifetime total of contaminants in the first 5000 miles. Those contaminants include built in dirt from machining and assembly (variable according to the cleanliness of the assembly facility and that can be from great to appalling) and break-in material, which is unavoidable. If you change the oil and pan fitler within 5K miles, you eliminate those contaminants but that's kind of a waste of oil.
An inline filter will do the same thing for the most part without wasting the oil. You place this filter on the return cooler line. Ford use to (and may still have ) a kit for this that had a small filter that looked like a fuel filter. It was made by several companies. You can buy the same thing if you Google "Magnefine" which was, or may still be, available from BITOG sponsors. If you are handy, you can build yourself a filter with a spin-on element and you can see several good examples in this section. Racor makes a highly efficient spin on tranny filter kit called the LFS (Google that too).
That used to be part of a reman trans job until Ford decided to save money and delete it from the kit.... but it still should be part of a reman and many shops still do it. If there is any failure contaminants, they often lodge in the cooler (pretty hard to flush it all) or just general crud can build up there and the filter will catch it before it does harm. It's a good prophylactic too just for normal wear and can extend the life of the oil and the trans.
Ford used to have major trouble with remains failing due to contamination due to built in dirt from the reman process combined with failure junk and in the '90s instituted the return line filter program that, according to my reliable sources, dropped the failure rate from significant double digits to low single digits. From what I understand, a major portion of the problems came from techs who didn't perform the required cooler line flushes, or did them improperly, but they found even a flush will not guarantee all the junk will be removed.
There are several SAE white papers (I have referenced them in previous "soap box" sessions you can find searching my posts if you want more detail) that have the results of numerous studies done on thousands of transmissions since the '80s that indicate a new or reman tranny will generate 75 percent of it's lifetime total of contaminants in the first 5000 miles. Those contaminants include built in dirt from machining and assembly (variable according to the cleanliness of the assembly facility and that can be from great to appalling) and break-in material, which is unavoidable. If you change the oil and pan fitler within 5K miles, you eliminate those contaminants but that's kind of a waste of oil.
An inline filter will do the same thing for the most part without wasting the oil. You place this filter on the return cooler line. Ford use to (and may still have ) a kit for this that had a small filter that looked like a fuel filter. It was made by several companies. You can buy the same thing if you Google "Magnefine" which was, or may still be, available from BITOG sponsors. If you are handy, you can build yourself a filter with a spin-on element and you can see several good examples in this section. Racor makes a highly efficient spin on tranny filter kit called the LFS (Google that too).
Quote:
Only problem was reverse. The truck is 4WD and AWD option. Ford redid the rear differential first trying to fix the problem.
Did it work okay in reverse e.g. no slipping, quick and positive engagement etc?
I'm a little surprised they didn't look at the transfer case first. Chain slop will cause a bad clunk going into rev.
U joints would be to obvious for them to miss i hope.
Only problem was reverse. The truck is 4WD and AWD option. Ford redid the rear differential first trying to fix the problem.
Did it work okay in reverse e.g. no slipping, quick and positive engagement etc?
I'm a little surprised they didn't look at the transfer case first. Chain slop will cause a bad clunk going into rev.
U joints would be to obvious for them to miss i hope.
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Originally Posted By: Lakersguy
Trans worked great forward and reverse. It just had a really bad clunk going into reverse. I've had different dealerships trying to fix it for 4 years. Hopefully, this is it.
I'm with Trav on this one.... The 4R100 isn't known for this. And if the transmission otherwise behaves correctly.... It would be surprising if it was in fact the transmission. The concern is that they are replacing a transmission that is working correctly (this issue aside) with a remanufactured unit, whilst the issue doesn't sound like it should really be the transmission.......
Clunks normally are the result of slop in the drivetrain. So, as Trav stated, chain slack is a common culprit, bad U-joints....etc.
Trans worked great forward and reverse. It just had a really bad clunk going into reverse. I've had different dealerships trying to fix it for 4 years. Hopefully, this is it.
I'm with Trav on this one.... The 4R100 isn't known for this. And if the transmission otherwise behaves correctly.... It would be surprising if it was in fact the transmission. The concern is that they are replacing a transmission that is working correctly (this issue aside) with a remanufactured unit, whilst the issue doesn't sound like it should really be the transmission.......
Clunks normally are the result of slop in the drivetrain. So, as Trav stated, chain slack is a common culprit, bad U-joints....etc.
I agree with Trav... Make sure they checked everything out before replacing your tranny.
They stopped doing the line filter on reman units because people wouldn't replace them. Then the in line filter clogs and there is no flow to the trans and the trans go boom.
I have used this one with pressure gauge and had good results.
It fits all 4R100 inc the Nav, Exp and F Series with gas engines.
http://www.dieselsite.com/dieselsitetransmissionfiltersystemford1994-199773l.aspx
It fits all 4R100 inc the Nav, Exp and F Series with gas engines.
http://www.dieselsite.com/dieselsitetransmissionfiltersystemford1994-199773l.aspx
If they are not already doing so, a Magnefine filter would be wise.[Even if you pay!]
Many rebuilders won't warranty their trannys without one [or similar].
Many rebuilders won't warranty their trannys without one [or similar].
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
They stopped doing the line filter on reman units because people wouldn't replace them. Then the in line filter clogs and there is no flow to the trans and the trans go boom.
Horse hocky! Your source for this information is whom or what? Fact is, the Magnefine CANNOT plug. It has a bypass, as any inline filter should. The other brand Ford used was from Filtran, and it too has a bypass. Both were subject to strenuous qualification tests and both passed. Do some research before you pass along untrue garbage like that!
They stopped doing the line filter on reman units because people wouldn't replace them. Then the in line filter clogs and there is no flow to the trans and the trans go boom.
Horse hocky! Your source for this information is whom or what? Fact is, the Magnefine CANNOT plug. It has a bypass, as any inline filter should. The other brand Ford used was from Filtran, and it too has a bypass. Both were subject to strenuous qualification tests and both passed. Do some research before you pass along untrue garbage like that!
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
They stopped doing the line filter on reman units because people wouldn't replace them. Then the in line filter clogs and there is no flow to the trans and the trans go boom.
Horse hocky! Your source for this information is whom or what? Fact is, the Magnefine CANNOT plug. It has a bypass, as any inline filter should. The other brand Ford used was from Filtran, and it too has a bypass. Both were subject to strenuous qualification tests and both passed. Do some research before you pass along untrue garbage like that!
From a Ford Powertrain Engineer. I will be sure to second guess him next time I talk to him.
Either way the approved replacement procedure includes flushing and backflushing the cooler using the Rotunda heated flushing machine. The loophole to just install the filter no longer applies.
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
They stopped doing the line filter on reman units because people wouldn't replace them. Then the in line filter clogs and there is no flow to the trans and the trans go boom.
Horse hocky! Your source for this information is whom or what? Fact is, the Magnefine CANNOT plug. It has a bypass, as any inline filter should. The other brand Ford used was from Filtran, and it too has a bypass. Both were subject to strenuous qualification tests and both passed. Do some research before you pass along untrue garbage like that!
From a Ford Powertrain Engineer. I will be sure to second guess him next time I talk to him.
Either way the approved replacement procedure includes flushing and backflushing the cooler using the Rotunda heated flushing machine. The loophole to just install the filter no longer applies.
WOW that's brutal and un BITOG like IMHO! bd has always passed on good information and is a first class Ford parts info source.
I'm sure anything passed on came from a reliable source and posted with good intentions, debate or question for sure but please don't hammer a respected member like that.
I'm sure anything passed on came from a reliable source and posted with good intentions, debate or question for sure but please don't hammer a respected member like that.
Getting a genuine FORD remanufactured unit is a good move.
Much better quality than the common corner place that just does enough to the old units to make them work.....which is hit or miss.
I have used the Magnefine filter and highly recommend it.
It is a great add for very little money.
You can install one for under $20.
I have read the TSB that bdcardinal mentions....as it appied to my '96 FORD Windstar, which got a FORD remanufactured transmission in about 2001.
The dealership did not install a filter, but I did later.
The TSB is very specific about using ONLY ATF, and NO chemicals/cleaners.
The other thing that the TSB mentions is to make sure that the in-radiator (and auxillary cooler, if it has one) are not clogged with junk, restricting or blocking the flow.
Restricted or blocked flow will cause the replacement transmission to fail also.
If the in-radiator cooler cannot be retored to proper flow rate, the only solution is to replace the WHOLE radiator assembly.
The auxillary cooler could be replaced on its own, but it is less likely to become clogged as the flow is usually through the in-radiator cooler THEN through the auxillary cooler (if present).
My understanding of how things flow......the fluid returning to the transmission through the cooler return line flows directly into the pan, then it is sucked up through the in-pan filter through the pump and into the rest of the transmission, then out to the cooler(s).
Thus, any junk that gets into the fluid from inside the transmission workings will have to pass through the cooler(s) before flowing through the in-pan filter.
From this flow pattern, one can understand how junk can become built up inside the cooler.
I had read someplace that MOST, but not all fluid flows through the cooler(s).
The thought process in placing the Magnefine, or other cooler line filter in the RETURN line from the transmission is so that any junk that may be in the cooler will be caught in the filter before returning to the transmission pan.
If the vehicle is nearly new, then the in-line filter could be installed in the cooler line going TO the cooler.
Remember, even though the replacement transmission may be near new, the cooler is not, so the rule of "old unit" would apply.
HOWEVER, if, for some reason, one cannot install the filter in the line going FROM the cooler to the transmission, then one could still put it in the other line as some filtration is better than none....you just won't have the extra protection for catching anything in the cooler.
The best of the in-pan filters only filter to a nominal particle size of about 80 microns.........if you have a screen, then the nominal particle size is HUGE, by comparison.
The Magnefine is rated for at largest, a 35 micron nominal particle size, which really makes a difference in keeping the fluid valves and seats clean.
Much better quality than the common corner place that just does enough to the old units to make them work.....which is hit or miss.
I have used the Magnefine filter and highly recommend it.
It is a great add for very little money.
You can install one for under $20.
I have read the TSB that bdcardinal mentions....as it appied to my '96 FORD Windstar, which got a FORD remanufactured transmission in about 2001.
The dealership did not install a filter, but I did later.
The TSB is very specific about using ONLY ATF, and NO chemicals/cleaners.
The other thing that the TSB mentions is to make sure that the in-radiator (and auxillary cooler, if it has one) are not clogged with junk, restricting or blocking the flow.
Restricted or blocked flow will cause the replacement transmission to fail also.
If the in-radiator cooler cannot be retored to proper flow rate, the only solution is to replace the WHOLE radiator assembly.
The auxillary cooler could be replaced on its own, but it is less likely to become clogged as the flow is usually through the in-radiator cooler THEN through the auxillary cooler (if present).
My understanding of how things flow......the fluid returning to the transmission through the cooler return line flows directly into the pan, then it is sucked up through the in-pan filter through the pump and into the rest of the transmission, then out to the cooler(s).
Thus, any junk that gets into the fluid from inside the transmission workings will have to pass through the cooler(s) before flowing through the in-pan filter.
From this flow pattern, one can understand how junk can become built up inside the cooler.
I had read someplace that MOST, but not all fluid flows through the cooler(s).
The thought process in placing the Magnefine, or other cooler line filter in the RETURN line from the transmission is so that any junk that may be in the cooler will be caught in the filter before returning to the transmission pan.
If the vehicle is nearly new, then the in-line filter could be installed in the cooler line going TO the cooler.
Remember, even though the replacement transmission may be near new, the cooler is not, so the rule of "old unit" would apply.
HOWEVER, if, for some reason, one cannot install the filter in the line going FROM the cooler to the transmission, then one could still put it in the other line as some filtration is better than none....you just won't have the extra protection for catching anything in the cooler.
The best of the in-pan filters only filter to a nominal particle size of about 80 microns.........if you have a screen, then the nominal particle size is HUGE, by comparison.
The Magnefine is rated for at largest, a 35 micron nominal particle size, which really makes a difference in keeping the fluid valves and seats clean.
Originally Posted By: Trav
WOW that's brutal and un BITOG like IMHO! bd has always passed on good information and is a first class Ford parts info source.
I'm sure anything passed on came from a reliable source and posted with good intentions, debate or question for sure but please don't hammer a respected member like that.
How is that brutal? It may have been abrupt, but when somebody says something I know to be blatant misinformation and a disservice to everyone who reads it, I have every right to challenge it. What he states is a near physical impossibility and patently incorrect. If a Ford Engineer told him that, then that Ford engineer woefully misinformed and I'd tell him the same thing to his face. I'll be happy to reevaluate my position with more facts.
As I said, the Magnefine went through a rigorous qualification procedure, including the bypass valve. I have the test docs in front of me here and in a report dated 4 Feb, 1998, the bypass valves of six 5/16" and six 3/8" filters were tested and the test results for that component reads:
"PASSED- All filter cracked at 4.0 psid =/-1.0psid, 'open' at 7.14 psid, 1st std. dev.=2.0. Improved relief valve design (reduced "'open' variation) under test. Bypass performance deemed acceptable."
Here is a Magnefine cut open (the arrows show the o-ring, the bypass is behnd the magnet on the filter itself). I have this cut open filter. Yyou can see the same thing online if you look. I found a shot of the bypass valve here: Bypass
WOW that's brutal and un BITOG like IMHO! bd has always passed on good information and is a first class Ford parts info source.
I'm sure anything passed on came from a reliable source and posted with good intentions, debate or question for sure but please don't hammer a respected member like that.
How is that brutal? It may have been abrupt, but when somebody says something I know to be blatant misinformation and a disservice to everyone who reads it, I have every right to challenge it. What he states is a near physical impossibility and patently incorrect. If a Ford Engineer told him that, then that Ford engineer woefully misinformed and I'd tell him the same thing to his face. I'll be happy to reevaluate my position with more facts.
As I said, the Magnefine went through a rigorous qualification procedure, including the bypass valve. I have the test docs in front of me here and in a report dated 4 Feb, 1998, the bypass valves of six 5/16" and six 3/8" filters were tested and the test results for that component reads:
"PASSED- All filter cracked at 4.0 psid =/-1.0psid, 'open' at 7.14 psid, 1st std. dev.=2.0. Improved relief valve design (reduced "'open' variation) under test. Bypass performance deemed acceptable."
Here is a Magnefine cut open (the arrows show the o-ring, the bypass is behnd the magnet on the filter itself). I have this cut open filter. Yyou can see the same thing online if you look. I found a shot of the bypass valve here: Bypass
Originally Posted By: Lakersguy
I spoke to my dealership today and they told me that the new transmission does come with an inline filter. I don't know what kind.
What is really cool about the Ford assemblies is the warranty, 3 years, unlimited miles good at any Ford dealer. Make a couple copies of your repair order as that is your warranty if for some reason they do not register your trans on OASIS.
As far as the filter thing, if I am wrong, then I got bad info and I am sorry if I ruffled feathers. You do have to remember that people generally don't read the paperwork that comes with the trans that states the add in filter must be replaced with any trans service. All the proper maintainence is outlined in the paperwork that comes with the assembly. When I was an apprentice pulling these trans assemblies in and out the first step was to toss the customer portion of the paperwork on the passenger seat with a note that said "READ THIS" in as big as we could write.
I spoke to my dealership today and they told me that the new transmission does come with an inline filter. I don't know what kind.
What is really cool about the Ford assemblies is the warranty, 3 years, unlimited miles good at any Ford dealer. Make a couple copies of your repair order as that is your warranty if for some reason they do not register your trans on OASIS.
As far as the filter thing, if I am wrong, then I got bad info and I am sorry if I ruffled feathers. You do have to remember that people generally don't read the paperwork that comes with the trans that states the add in filter must be replaced with any trans service. All the proper maintainence is outlined in the paperwork that comes with the assembly. When I was an apprentice pulling these trans assemblies in and out the first step was to toss the customer portion of the paperwork on the passenger seat with a note that said "READ THIS" in as big as we could write.
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