'02 RSX, custom engine, M1 5W30, 6226mi on E85

[corey872]

Bit of background... I've had my '02 RSX / Turbo on E85 for about 4 years. Clutch failure meant a great opportunity to rebuild the engine for even more power and compatibility with 105 octane E85. Did a bore/hone, dropped in some 12.5:1 pistons, eagle rods, a more efficient turbo, balanced & blueprinted the engine. Dropped in some dino oil, did a motoman break-in. After ~200 miles, I changed for more dino oil. At about 2700, I changed to M1 synthetic and ran to 6,226mi. This is the result of that analysis:

Code:


02 RSX Turbo Univ. Average



mi on oil 6,226

mi on engine 8,980

make up added 0



Aluminum 5 3

Chromium 1 0

Iron 17 8

Copper 30 2

Lead 7 2

Tin 0 1

Moly 166 72

Nickel 0 0

Mang 1 0

Silver 0 0

Titanium 0 0

Potassium 3 2

Boron 44 64

Silicon 17 10

Sodium 44 72

Calcium 2446 2437

Magnesium 13 42

Phos 739 679

Zinc 809 760

Barium 0 0

Range

SUS @210F 57.9 55-62

cSt @100C 9.62 8.8-11.1

Flashpoint 410 >365

Fuel
Antifreeze 0.0 0.0

Water 0.0 0.0'

Insolubles TR
TBN 4.8




Blackstone assessment was the iron, copper and lead are probably left over from break-in. I suspect possibly residual contamination from the 2700 mile oil or possibly still some beak-in happening after that point. They say silicon might be from sealers. Also running K&N style filter which is a little looser than paper. Recommend going to 8,000 on the next interval to see how that goes, so I will try and hit that interval next.

Was really impressed to see the oil still looking like honey on the dipstick after 6200 miles and only a trace of insolubles thanks to good ring sealing and virtually no soot from the E85.

If anyone is interested:

Build thread:
http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php/topic,3636.0.html

UOA report and pics:
http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php/topic,5034.0.html

 

[Lead Shoes]

looks to be working its self in nicely, I would just run 5 or 6k on M1 till 20k before I checked back, because all your reports will be heavily skewed by break in wear until about 40k

 

[OceanDoctor]

12.5 static compression and boost? That's very interesting that you decided on that combo. How many pounds are you pushing on which turbo? Either way looks like a nice setup you have! You running the stock cams?

 

[corey872]

Thanks for the additional info.

OceanDoctor - That's the E85 at work! My goal was to get some great mileage with a ton of power all while using dirt cheap American fuel.

I've got a lot more info on the build thread link above. But briefly: 12.5:1 compression, ceramic coated pistons/chambers, Precision Billet 5857E turbo, running about 10psi non-intercooled right now. So far, no detonation up to about 115ºF actual air temp and 150º at the throttle body. I'm specifically looking for warm air to boost fuel efficiency. Though eventually looking to set up a cut-out valve and add my intercooler back in. So I can switch to the intercooler, to go up to 15psi, then go back to a straight-through warm air path for economy.

Right now, I'm seeing up to about 30mpg. Several guys running stock 11:1 compression with this turbo and fighting detonation on junky 94 octane gasoline are in the 400hp range. So if the extra cooling and 105 octane E85 can't do that plus some, I'd pee on the spark plugs with the engine running!

If I had my choice, I'd probably bump compression in the 13+ range and get a turbo about 1/2 size smaller to see if the mpg would jump up a bit more, but those parts just aren't available in the aftermarket. One of these days maybe a major manufacturer will make an engine geared more toward E85, then everyone can use cheap gas, great mpg and good amounts of power.

Oil after 6,226 mi

 

[REDDOG]

I say good job! That looks great for such a fresh build, especially running E85!

What did you use for dino oil during the first two fills?

Thanks!

 

[corey872]

Thanks REDDOG. Hopefully it will break in and be a long lived, high power engine. I'm pleased with the 30mpg so far - the original RSX was rated for about 27 combined on premium, so +3mpg, a lot more power, and E85 being 80-90 cents per gallon cheaper than premium works out pretty nice.

Curious when you say 'especially running E85!' Would you expect E85 to be harder on the oil / engine than gasoline? I know the soot loading is a lot less and I'd expect the acid loading to be less too. (lower sulfuric/nitric acids, though possibly a bit of formic/acetic acid. But the TBN seems to be holding fine) No chance of detonation, so no worries of hammering pistons/bearings.

The break-in oil was Castrol GTX 5W30. Basically, I just wanted something to throw in for the first couple rounds. I did quite a bit of checking/measuring of the bore surface finish - both a spot of bore which wasn't touched from the original OEM and after NAPA got done with a good plateau hone job. (also detailed in my build thread linked above) The numbers came out looking pretty good. I did the motoman break-in sequence. Everything seems to have sealed up nicely.

 

[addyguy]

Looks excellent for the service.

 

[REDDOG]

Thanks,

I was really impressed with the apparent lack of fuel dilution and the fact the oil looked that good and is still in grade after over 6k mi. Looks like it is sealing very well. My big fear would be the alcohol diluting the oil and affecting wear. Good call on the motoman break in IMO.

I asked about the dino because of the sodium. GTX has a significant sodium level so the sodium would be residual from that.

That's a very cool build. Best of every world, IMO! Thanks again for sharing it here!

REDDOG

 

[corey872]

Ah – I see some of your thought process now. Appreciate the additional info.

Fuel dilution was a thought I had in the initial design stages too. Especially with the realization I’d need 1000cc injectors to keep the turbo properly fed on the top end.

By boosting the compression I was hoping to increase overall efficiency – meaning less E85 would need to be pumped into the engine. With my E85 mileage hovering around 30 mpg and sites like fuelly.com showing stock RSX-S’s averaging around 26.7 on gas – it seems the 1.5 point CR boost has paid off.

Also, during the highway/town cruising range, I advance the intake cam opening to ~52 degrees BTDC. The high pressure cylinder (still on the exhaust stroke) then blows down into the intake manifold. This results in a high EGR rate, plus a good dose of pre-heated air for the injectors to squirt fuel in. The EGR helps boost part throttle mileage and the pre-heated air helps vaporization of the E85 to reduce chances of any fuel droplets hitting the cylinder walls where they go into the oil.

Of course, if I get a bit deeper in the throttle, the cam advance jumps to a substantially more turbo-friendly setting, the high lift lobes kick in, injectors ramp up like mini sprinkler heads and the road starts disappearing in short order.

 

[chubbs1]

Awesome read and looks like you are going to have a vehicle with a long healthy engine life.

Most factory oil is synthetic, I've never changed out the oil that fast and switched to conventional, but I have always broken in my engines pretty hard, fully warmed up.

 

[corey872]

Are you referring to the original factory oil fill being synthetic? I’ve heard of that – though never driven a new car off a lot, so have not had any experience. When I last did research (7-8 years ago) there was a pretty good debate about break-in with synthetic vs conventional and the OEM synthetic oil fill was held up as evidence that a break-in could be done on synthetic. I don’t know if the debate is still going or not.

My .02 – the OEM’s probably have a ton of money to sink into research, have a very methodical practice to cylinder honing, and probably use top end/well tuned equipment to do millions of cylinder bores – the idea being to deliver a nearly ideal hone at the start and make a very long lived engine. So very little break-in is likely needed (consequently very little break-in debris), they can probably run synthetic oil and maybe 5,000 miles on a first fill. The engine being assembled in a robot clean room, doesn’t hurt either.

With me, I have a shoe-string budget, I have to deal with what ever hone NAPA sees fit to put in the cylinders, (which seemed to be relatively good by the way), with what ever machine they have plunked away in the back room doing maybe dozens to a hundred blocks a year. I put the engine together in my garage, and while I took every step to make sure things were clean before going together, the parts are still subject to general dust in the air and what ever else happens to blow along. (Even a single gram of dirt would be well over 200ppm in my 5qt oil fill.)

Based on all that, I stuck with a conventional oil to allow a bit of ‘cutting’ at the ring/wall boundary, used the motoman method to further aid 'cutting' as opposed to rounding over the ridges on the hone pattern, and changed out the oil relatively fast to help ‘flush’ that initial wear debris / dust / fuel contamination, etc.

Anecdotally, I've been pleased with the three engines I've broken in using the motoman method (this car, a motorcycle and a log splitter) - however the one engine I broke in on synthetic (lawn mower with the same engine as the log splitter)-throws a huge cloud of blue smoke at start-up.

 

[Torrid]

Looking at the add pack I'm guessing this is the SM version? Report looks awesome!

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: corey872


Anecdotally, I've been pleased with the three engines I've broken in using the motoman method (this car, a motorcycle and a log splitter) - however the one engine I broke in on synthetic (lawn mower with the same engine as the log splitter)-throws a huge cloud of blue smoke at start-up.


I broke in both my 07 Civics and 07 CBR600RR the motoman's way and have been pleased. My 98 Camry V6 had it's first oil change @ 50 miles straight to synthetic and @ 209,000 miles, it runs like new and doesn't burn any more oil then normal.

It's hard to decide the effects of early synthetic use with one lawnmower engine blowing smoke.

 

[steve20]

and I've broken in all my engines the exact opposite-and haven't had a clunker yet--soooo we 2 opposite ends of the spectrum giving equally excellent results--what happens to the people in the middle of the spectrum?????? those are the oil burners j/k