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#232499 - 06/09/04 01:25 AM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
Bio-T Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 5336
Loc: London, AR
The same TBN test method is being used since day one on the Mobil test. The numbers are as they are, read them and weep. If Mobil I is a 15K oil and Amsoil is a 10K oil in this engine then so be it. I could live with that as this is real world testing. Don't shoot the messenger (lab) they don't have a duck in this race, they are neutral.

[I dont know]

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#232500 - 06/09/04 01:30 AM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46627
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
QR1 - I agree, emotions not necessary.

Not ragging on Blackstone, but their TBN methodology is not standard ASTM, so it should be subject to some questioning.

TS - we shouldn't need to recommend any oil filter for the oil to go any distance, but I do agree the thickening is just a fact, not an out of control situation.

JMon- your linkage no workie for me

vetteman -
quote:
The same TBN test method is being used since day one on the Mobil test.
Not true. SEE: M1

[ June 09, 2004, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

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#232501 - 06/09/04 01:34 AM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 29134
Loc: NJ
I spoke with Ryan from Blackstone Labs about this test. He is well aware of it and probably does the testing.

He said that Blackstone Labs used to use Dexil Kits purchased from MA. He said they always read high. They switched the testing method around last August during the Mobil 1 test.

His opinion of this test is that Mobil 1 is holding it's TBN better, but that he would continue on with this test, even at 0. Anything less then 1 they start to get concerned. However, if the viscosity and wear rates are not effected, which in this case they are not, then I'd assume the oil is fine. He also believes that M1's wear rates were higher due to breakin wear. That might be part of it, but I'm jumping on the bandwagon and starting to think LS1's might prefer a thicker oil, one with more ZDP possibly. I'd also say that RL won't do as well as either one of these, but it will have an advantage of an engine that is very worn in.

Side note, if 3MP can draw a small sample out, I'd pay to have it looked at by another Lab, maybe OAI? This TBN issue is really ridiculous IMO.

Terry?

[ June 09, 2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

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#232502 - 06/09/04 01:47 AM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
TooSlick Offline


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 5785
Loc: Dixie
One thing that might be affecting the comparative TBN results in this case is that Mobil is using a primarily Calcium based detergent system. Amsoil is using a more even mixture of calcium and magnesium. Depending on the type of acid that Blackstone uses, there is a possibility that only the stronger base elements in the oil are being titrated, which would tend to under predict the TBN for formulations that use a more even mixture of detergents/dispersants. I have noticed this same trend from other labs in the past, including Oil Analyzers.

It would be interesting to run the Amsoil ASL formulation and Series 3000, 5w-30 under the same conditions and have them tested by Blackstone. The Series 3000 also uses a Calcium based detergent system w/ > 3500 ppm, with very little - about 50 ppm - of Magnesium. I believe the TBN's of the used Series 3000 samples would come back significantly higher, even if the actual # of oil degradation is roughly the same. I will end up doing this comparison in my Audi TT turbo, once I finish testing the xw-30, Amsoil gas engine oils.

As I recall, Redline is also using a calcium based detergent systsm. So it will be interesting to look at the TBN's from Blackstone on their formulation and how they drop over time. I predict that results will show less TBN drop over the first 5000 miles with Redline, due to their detergent/dispersant blend. But time will tell ....

TS

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#232503 - 06/09/04 01:50 AM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
Drstressor Offline


Registered: 01/18/03
Posts: 243
Loc: Reno Nevada
A TBN of 1.0 is a very conservative cutoff point for a Blackstone analysis. There is no risk of acid-induced engine damage since their is plenty of alkaline reserve and available detergent at this point. I communicated with one of their engineers last year and discussed their methodology in some detail. There are 2 reasons for their low TBN values: 1) They take a shortcut that reduces the amount of time that a sample needs to be on their autotitrator and 2) they calibrate their electrode at pH 4.0 instead of pH 7.0. This was suggested to them by the equipment supplier. I suspect this is because most autotitrators are used for testing waste water and anything below pH 4.0 is considered to be acidic. Obviously, it takes less KOH to titrate to pH 4.0 than to pH 7. pH is an exponential scale, so the difference is very significant. So the Blackstone TBN readings have an inherent error versus the traditional methods. But this error will be a constant factor in all of their measurements, provides a larger margin of safety, and should not affect the reproducibility of their measurements in any way. Anyone with an understanding of high school chemistry will understand what I'm saying.

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#232504 - 06/09/04 02:34 AM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
Bio-T Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 5336
Loc: London, AR
vetteman -
quote:
The same TBN test method is being used since day one on the Mobil test.
Not true. SEE: M1 [/QB][/QUOTE]

Pablo,

Just like college, I should not fall asleep during the open book time. [HAIL 2 U!]

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#232505 - 06/09/04 05:50 AM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46627
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
59 vetteman - no issues, you remain a scholar and a gentleman in my eyes.

Drstressor - excellent write up! I wish I could have said it so clearly.

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#232506 - 06/09/04 06:25 AM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
ekpolk Offline
The Regenerator


Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 8881
Loc: Pensacola FL
quote:
Originally posted by 3 Mad Ponchos:

{material cut}
I had anticipated testing this sample with the Dexsil kits, but unfortunately I was travelling when I took the sample (yep when I travel I bring a kit and borrow ramps from some poor slob along the way) so it didn't work out. I'm hoping to test the 10k sample.
{material cut}
Cheers, 3MP

3MP: I admire your dedication, but I do have one suggestion. With my first couple Blackstone bottles, I ordered their sample pulling pump. This makes taking a sample absurdly easy. I just run the little hose down the disptick tube, draw a couple "purging" samples (which I pour right back into the engine) and then collect the one I will submit. No ramps involved. . . [Wink]

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#232507 - 06/09/04 06:41 AM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
3 Mad Ponchos Offline


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 688
Loc: Morgantown, WV
ekpolk, not on my LS1... I own 4 pumps that don't work on this car. [Wink]

Thanks tho.

Cheers, 3MP

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#232508 - 06/09/04 07:23 AM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
ekpolk Offline
The Regenerator


Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 8881
Loc: Pensacola FL
quote:
Originally posted by 3 Mad Ponchos:
ekpolk, not on my LS1... I own 4 pumps that don't work on this car. [Wink]

Thanks tho.

Cheers, 3MP

Well, there's that dedication again. I'd have given up in disgust after probably the second pump. I wonder if the engineers set out to make it this way -- you know, making every part of the 'vette ownership experience "special." Still, you'd think they'd try to make some part of the experience easier than footing the bill for it all. [Wink]

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#232509 - 06/09/04 08:15 AM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
ToyotaNSaturn Offline


Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 11229
Loc: Spring Hill, TN
Why is the TBN so low? I'm no professional at reading these anaysis reports, but seeing the trend to the TBN bottoming out almost instantly seems odd. Wrong TBN readings? It just doesn't make sense after perusing through other Amsoil UOAs.

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#232510 - 06/09/04 01:20 PM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25476
Loc: Illinoistan
quote:
Originally posted by ToyotaNSaturn:
Why is the TBN so low?

I think this is what we've been trying to figure out this entire thread. [Big Grin]

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#232511 - 06/09/04 03:33 PM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
Motorbike Offline


Registered: 11/25/03
Posts: 2602
Loc: The Tropics of Antartica
quote:
Originally posted by 59 Vetteman:
vetteman -
quote:
The same TBN test method is being used since day one on the Mobil test.
Not true. SEE: M1
Pablo,

Just like college, I should not fall asleep during the open book time. [HAIL 2 U!]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The new TBN method was used from 12k through 18k miles in the Mobil test .

[ June 10, 2004, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]

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#232512 - 06/09/04 05:22 PM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
3 Mad Ponchos Offline


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 688
Loc: Morgantown, WV
Something to consider about the TBN-- regardless of what the absolute value is, Mobil 1 exhibited a state of equilibrium over a considerable span of miles. Amsoil is well beyond the point that Mobil 1 reached equilibrium and is still dropping. That to me is much more significant than whether we call it a 1.9 or a 4.0.

Cheers, 3MP

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#232513 - 06/09/04 05:27 PM Re: 9,000-mile results are in!
3 Mad Ponchos Offline


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 688
Loc: Morgantown, WV
Another thought, just to stir the pot, if it's Amsoil's thickness that is providing the extra protection vs. Mobil 1, why not just run 10W40 Mobil 1 and save $2.50 a quart?

Cheers, 3MP

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