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#2288931 - 06/15/11 05:53 PM Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1
car54 Offline


Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 239
Loc: Wdbg, VA
I visited my local Stihl dealer today. I called and asked if they had Motomix, and they said they had one bottle left but had plenty of Trufuel 50:1. They also informed me they were identical products and both were made by trufuel, and I should buy trufuel because it's cheaper.

So I bought both. While I have no doubt in my mind that Motomix is produced for Stihl by Trufuel, They aren't close to being identical. Motomix is green, from the HP ultra oil. Trufuel is pink, from whatever oil they use.

Motomix was $9.95. Trufuel was $7.95.

I haven't used either yet, but I will put each one in different saws and see how it smells/smokes/runs.




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#2288943 - 06/15/11 06:06 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
Johnny Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 14013
Loc: Retired | Wausau, WI
They are defiantly different products. I use the MotoMix and my local dealer sells it for $7.99 per can.

Nice pics.

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#2288953 - 06/15/11 06:17 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
car54 Offline


Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 239
Loc: Wdbg, VA
I need to convince my dealer they aren't the same, and to drop the price a bit!

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#2288955 - 06/15/11 06:21 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
Johnny Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 14013
Loc: Retired | Wausau, WI
I would think someone at Stihl headquarters could set your dealer straight.

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#2288957 - 06/15/11 06:24 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
FNFAL308 Offline


Registered: 06/11/11
Posts: 136
Loc: Florida, Treasure Coast
Originally Posted By: car54
I need to convince my dealer they aren't the same, and to drop the price a bit!


Originally Posted By: car54
I need to convince my dealer they aren't the same, and to drop the price a bit!


I spoke to the owner of the Shop today about Moto-mix, we should be getting some in soon..
They are definitely NOT the same product and as to the cost there is a significant diff in dealer cost/pricing as well..

That big diff in dealer cost is the reason for the diff in Retail.. I'm not saying I like it just noting the reason is all..


Edited by FNFAL308 (06/15/11 06:25 PM)

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#2289040 - 06/15/11 07:55 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
dakota99 Offline


Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 428
Loc: indiana
I've been using TruFuel 40:1 in my ryobi trimmer with no problems yet. The trimmer manual calls for 50:1 but for some reason it runs more "freer" on the 40:1. Exhaust is clean and not oily.

I get mine for $3.95 at walmart. $7.95 is a little steep. It's also green colored.
_________________________
1999 Dodge Dakota
5.2L 318
Rotella T5 10w30
132k Miles

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#2289455 - 06/16/11 09:16 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: dakota99]
660mag Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 318
Loc: TEXAS
I worked on an fs80r yesterday that has been run on trufuel most of it's life. The engine did have good sealing numbers, but was fouling plugs by bridging the gap with little round balls of gray carbon. I found nothing else suspect about the trimmer but the red fuel.
These two fuel are both bottled by the same co.(TrueSouth in Shreveport LA), but nothing about there formulas are the same but the ratio.
_________________________



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#2289848 - 06/16/11 05:25 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
car54 Offline


Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 239
Loc: Wdbg, VA
I spent the day switching my equipment from gas to motomix. I used the entire bottle of trufuel in my Echo backpack blower, it's at least 10 years old and the 32oz bottle only filled it halfway.

My MS310 saw and HT70 pole pruner both have carb problems. I bought them both in 2003 and have seen only a few hours a year of use. I added a little bit of gumout regane to the motomix in hopes that it will clean out whatever is causing the carb problems.

I have four other Stihls, a two stroke string trimmer, a fourmix trimmer, and two 046 saws. I will need some more motomix to convert all of them.

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#2289916 - 06/16/11 06:47 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
I find all of this discussion about "designer" fuels to be somewhat confusing.

I have over thirty years of hands on mechanical experience and was formally educated in diesel mechanics. I own and operate numerous small engine machines (probably forty or more) from motorcycles, ATVs, snowmobiles, outboard engines, two and four stroke OPE of several types. I have always done my own work and have rebuilt numerous engines both two and four stroke. My preferred engine is two cycles and I have many of them. In all of my years of experience, I've used nothing but regular pump fuel with conventional two cycle oil. I've never had an issue with either performance or reliability using normal fuel mixed at required ratios.

So, the confusion that I'm experiencing is trying to get my head around why anyone would pay such a ridiculous price for fuel that appears to offer nothing in return for the cost.

Maybe someone can enlighten me regarding the perceived advantages of using these high priced fuels?

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#2289928 - 06/16/11 07:04 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
car54 Offline


Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 239
Loc: Wdbg, VA
I'm only using it in equipment that sits more than it is used to prevent fuel from going bad in the carb. The leaf blower will sit for 3-4 months before I use it again in the fall. The trimmers sit all winter. ethanol is a mean substance and if paying out the rear is the only way to avoid it, so be it.

You mention rebuilding two and four stroke engines, but then state you have never had an issue with performance or reliability using conventional two stroke oil?

Ive never rebuilt an engine, period. I use boutique oils and high end fuels. Stuff lasts much longer and runs better.

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#2289969 - 06/16/11 07:48 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
"You mention rebuilding two and four stroke engines, but then state you have never had an issue with performance or reliability using conventional two stroke oil?"

That is correct.

You see, when a person buys old, used and sometimes abused machines as I do (vintage motorcycles for instance), often the engine(s) will need work. Lots of work. That's where the "rebuilding" happens. I also do free work for friends and family who have mechanical problems. Accordingly, there will be a variety of issues that may require intense mechanical work.

I've never had an engine that I purchased new, fail. Some are thirty plus years old and all start quickly and run steady and strong.

I leave equipment at my cottage for six months at a time with regular pump fuel in them. I drain the carbs on machines that have float carbs. Diaphragm carbs are left as is. I've got a 1984 Jonsereds chainsaw and an '84 Stihl brush cutter that are left out there every year since new. Five pulls or so and they
both fire right up every spring. Same with everything else I leave out there all winter. I've yet to have any problems that would be related to fuel or oil.

Maybe I'm just lucky. If I am, I've been very lucky for a very long time.

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#2289988 - 06/16/11 08:05 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: boraticus]
doitmyself Offline


Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4830
Loc: MI
Knock on wood, but I too have had no apparent problems from ethanol fuel in dozens of outdoor power equipment at my workplace using reasonable fuel management practices. Some equipment sits for six months without problems, but I get nervous around that point.

The one difference I could imagine is that gasoline probably does go bad more quickly in the summer heat of the southern states. And, storing equipment overwinter in unheated garages in the northern states likewise causes the fuel to store longer and better.

Just a hunch.

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#2290168 - 06/17/11 12:18 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: doitmyself]
FNFAL308 Offline


Registered: 06/11/11
Posts: 136
Loc: Florida, Treasure Coast
I suspect there is a difference in fuels from state to state, as well as seasonal fuels. I also think that the Southern states may very well have more fuel issues then other places?

I see fuel probs everyday, carb rebuilds in both handheld and other equipment is common place for me. Sometimes I can clean the carb sometimes it needs a kit, sometimes I have to replace it.. Heck, I've done a good number of pcs just this week..

While I have no scientific proof I "suspect" that changes in the fuels (NOT just Ethanol) have made them much less stable and and they go bad faster then years ago. I can't begin to tell you how many pcs of equipment I get with fuel/carb issues from the SNOW BIRDS when they return south for the winter?

I've already posted in another thread the issues I see related to Ethanol and have also stated that there are a number of places that blame every conceivable anomoly on Ethanol which of course is just so much B~S..

Ethanol WILL harden the Diagrams in handheld equipment carbs.. It WILL eat the sealant on some of the Welch plugs in these carbs although most have changed to another sealent to keep this from happening..
Ethanol DOES cause BIG issues in the Marine industry which as one can imagine is pretty big here..
However it is NOT the cause of every run problem on earth just oft blamed when the REAL problem is not known/found.

I have 2 Gens of my own here at the house, working in the field I kinda pride myself on my care/maintenance of these and other pcs of equip I have.. These units had fresh fuel in them along with a healthy dose of SEAFOAM added to the fuel.. They were run for 30 min or so, then I shut the fuel off and run them till they die working the choke at the end to get as much fuel out as possible.. I start them every couple/3 months and repeat the process but even so the other day while doing my Pre-hurricane gen runs my Main gen with a 13 H/P Honda would not run at WOT... NO biggy to me as I had it fixed and running in about 10min but my point is these fuels just don't hold up like they used to.. I "DON'T" think this is an Ethanol issue it was just old fuel blocking a few holes in the emulsion tube running through the center of the carb.. I often see MAIN jets plugged as well but not in my case..
While "some" carbs (like this one in particular) can be drained there are a lot of others that can't be without removing and disassembling the carb first..

My 4-Mix Kombi sees a LOT of use, my MS-260 Pro See's occasional use and BOTH start and run perfectly every time..
While some may call the New fuels a Fad or Boutique fuels I can certainly see the attraction to them especially for a Homeowner and occasional user.. I don't see these fuels being cost effective or practical for a Commercial application but that's pretty much a no brainer..

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#2290309 - 06/17/11 08:38 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
Every fuel issue I've encountered is contamination. Usually water or a combination of water and debris. Last year I refueled
one of my outboards with freshly purchased fuel. A half mile from shore, the engine began to miss and sputter then stopped. I lifted the cowl and inspected the transparent fuel filter. The contents of the filter was orange, not blue. I drained it into a bailing can. I tilted the fuel tank onto the corner where the fuel pick up is then opened the fuel fitting to allow me to pump the bottom of the fuel tank into the bailing can. I pumped a good half litre of rust coloured water before I got to clean blue fuel. I reconnected the fuel line, loosened the drain plugs on the carbs and pumped clean fuel through.

Every fuel encounter I've had has been similar. Water in the fuel is worse than dirt. Filters can catch the dirt but water will get past.

If people were more vigilant inspecting their fuel before putting it into their machines, they may find that will solve a lot of problems. When your fuel container is getting low, tilt it to move the fuel to one corner and look for two distinct liquid layers. A siphon hose will easily pick up the water. Siphon off the water until you see clean fuel.

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#2290410 - 06/17/11 10:56 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: boraticus]
660mag Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 318
Loc: TEXAS
boraricus,

sometimes I think your lack of understanding the market for chemical advances stems from not giving yourself enough credit. 98% of boaters would have had to get a toe that day.

Will
_________________________



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#2290417 - 06/17/11 11:04 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: 660mag]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: 660mag
boraricus,

sometimes I think your lack of understanding the market for chemical advances stems from not giving yourself enough credit. 98% of boaters would have had to get a toe that day.

Will






Despite your insinuation that I'm chemical knowledge challenged, I'll take that as a compliment and thank you.

Experience is a mighty handy tool to have in one's possession when there's no one to count on but yourself. I've bailed myself and others out more than a few tight spots with a jack knife, duct tape, bailing wire and JB Weld.

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#2290451 - 06/17/11 11:58 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: boraticus]
660mag Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 318
Loc: TEXAS
A guy like you would be welcome in my camp anytime.
_________________________



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#2290561 - 06/17/11 02:11 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: 660mag]
FNFAL308 Offline


Registered: 06/11/11
Posts: 136
Loc: Florida, Treasure Coast
I'm well aware of what contamination, water, & debris will do to fuel systems.. My comments however were not associated to or related to the above and had they been I would have mentioned it..

That being said YES owners/operators of equipment "should" be more aware of the quality of fuel they use. They "should" use good fuel containers, they "should" know how to check for water and debris as well as applying proper storage methods..

However that's just NOT gonna to happen because in many instances the owner/user of said equipment ain't smart enough enough to do so.. To be honest I'm GLAD they aren't..
"IF" they were I'd have a lot less work to do..
I say most everyday that there quite simply are FAR TOO Many peeps that shouldn't own power equipment/tools.. These types should just PAY SOMEONE to do the work why they watch TV.

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#2290619 - 06/17/11 03:29 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
I agree that there are far too many people who shouldn't be anywhere near power equipment.

I'm related to some by marriage. I've told the story before about a S-I-L and her 20ish year old son who managed to sideline two lawnmowers by filling the fuel tanks with water then proceeded to break the recoil rope on one of them by pulling on it 35000 times rather than figure out what was wrong.

I recall seeing a five gallon gas can with no cap on it sitting in their back yard in the fall, through winter and into the spring of the year they had mower problems. It didn't take me too long to connect those dots.

The son filled the first mower from that very fuel can. It wouldn't run so they borrowed a mower from a neighbour and did the same thing. Thus putting both machines out of service. When neither would run, they loaded them up and dropped them off for me to fix. Nothing but water in the fuel tanks on both of them.

I mean really..... How dense does one have to be to do something as stupid as that? How tuned out is a person that can't distinguish water from gasoline?

What keeps these people alive????

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#2290654 - 06/17/11 04:13 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: boraticus]
FNFAL308 Offline


Registered: 06/11/11
Posts: 136
Loc: Florida, Treasure Coast
LOL, man if we could answer some of those Q's we'd be sittin in tall cotton..
I think it safe to say that LOTS of peeps just don't have any sense. I learned a long time ago that common sense is something you either have or ya don't, it's not something that can be taught/learned..

I've got so many examples and stories about customers it would take me a week to tell them all..
From something as simple as a Mower that won't start because it's OUT OF GAS, to an almost NEW $8K ZTR that needed the motor replaced because the OWNER of the lawn service changed the oil but forgot about the putting it back part.. laugh

I've seen Elederly men come in and buy friggin CHAIN SAWS with EASY START.. HA!! Gramps if'n you need an E-Z Start saw I'm thinkin you ought NOT even have a saw..

Your example of pulling the cord 35000 times is FUNNY but so true.. Peeps just don't get it, if'n it don't start after a couple pulls it aint gonna start.. Now they get to have the run problem fixed and pay for the R/S repair too.. tongue2

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#2290782 - 06/17/11 06:39 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
I've seen reasonably intelligent people pull on start ropes until either the rope/recoil system broke or the injured themselves. A couple years ago I got a phone call from a woman friend asking me if I'd look at a mower they had that wouldn't start. Her husband had pulled on it so much that he suffered a fairly serious shoulder injury. He ended up going to emergency and wound up with his arm in a sling and a subsequent appointment for surgery on the arm.

I'm laughing just thinking about this. After the wife called me, she put her husband on the phone so that I could ask him a few questions. He starts talking like he knows what he doing... "Yeah good spark, lots of fuel, just won't fire." That had me scratching my head. I told him I'd be right over.

I pulled the spark plug and he's right. Lots of spark. I then said to the guy "I thought you said it was getting gas?" "It is." He said. "The spark plug is wet." I said "The plug is wet with condensation from you using the engine as an air compressor. That's water on the plug not gas." I traced the fuel problem back to blockage in the tank. Fixed that and fired the machine up in five or so pulls.

Now for the good part....

This fellow tells me that in his younger years, he was formally trained to be a light aircraft mechanic!!! Needless to say, I, personally am glad that he chose to change his vocation.

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#2290927 - 06/17/11 09:12 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: boraticus]
FNFAL308 Offline


Registered: 06/11/11
Posts: 136
Loc: Florida, Treasure Coast
Funny story, it's good to hear stuff like this from other folks.. Sometimes I think I'm just to cynical (in fact my tag line on another forum is "Eternal Cynic") and oft have little patience and understanding for stupidness...
I suppose we are the types that figure stuff out and just fix it rather then the type to scratch our heads and call for help.. wink

I have hurt myself pretty bad though trying to start an Engine on a spray rig that had a sheered flywheel key.. I didn't know it at first of course but it pulled/kicked back so badly that it yanked the handle from my hand and messed me up for months..

Edit to add:
I'm also glad never to have flown on a Plane that gent worked on.. LOL


Edited by FNFAL308 (06/17/11 09:13 PM)

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#2291586 - 06/18/11 08:54 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
jdh Offline


Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 73
Loc: kentucky
it could be the same stuff cause stihl changed the ultra to a red oil a couple months ago according to the dealer

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#2291855 - 06/19/11 08:28 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: jdh]
660mag Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 318
Loc: TEXAS
That dealer told you wrong. Stihl has no red oil, and the ultra is green.
_________________________



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#2291881 - 06/19/11 09:07 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: 660mag]
daman Online   content


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10542
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
That motomix is been out for some time now and still hard to find around here,i was told during our "stihl days" at my local JD dealer they do indeed use there HP syn oil in this product witch is a quality oil to begin with. I picked up two cans(good price) to try in my recent new SM311 the saw screams and runs awesome with this mix i love the no ethanol and 92 octane as Stihl recommends 89 minimum.

little pricey for the guy who uses his equipment on a regular bases and probably not practical but for the occasional user this is a good product IMO and the two year shelf life is a plus too.
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

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#2292037 - 06/19/11 01:47 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
car54 Offline


Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 239
Loc: Wdbg, VA
I'm trying to figure out how to photograph it, because the trufuel 40:1 I bought isnt's red OR green, it's almost clear with barely any tint to it, no way they use stihl HP ultra in this stuff, it's nowhere near as green as the motomix 50:1.

I'm not even sure the bottle I got has oil mixed into it. it was $3.97 at Walmart, dented like it had been thru a warzone and last can on the shelf. It still smells like trufuel, but it doesnt look anything like the 50:1. I'm considering letting a sample boil off to see how much oil is left behind.

The trufuel MSDS states 50:1 is red, 40:1 is green, and "trufuel and purefuel" is clear.

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#2292050 - 06/19/11 02:04 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
660mag Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 318
Loc: TEXAS
Not worth using. Dump it in your mower.
_________________________



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#2292166 - 06/19/11 05:05 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
hate2work Offline


Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 4617
Loc: Western Washington

We see a lot of water in customer's gas simply because of the high humidity we have here in the PNW. Every time it rains it's 100% humidity, and it rains a lot around here. The alcohol will draw water right from the air and into the gas, whether the gas is in the machine or in the can. If it reaches the saturation point, it will cause something called phase separation, and that can/will cause lubrication issues. In two-stroke engines, the water-ethanol phase will prevent some of the blended oil from bonding to the metal engine parts. The engine may not have enough lubrication, and engine damage will result.

Different fuels make a big difference in how an engine runs. Years ago I was priveledged to see a high speed camera set up in the top of a chain saw engine that really opened my eyes to this fact. They had several diff fuels they would introduce to the combustion and then show us the different combustion blooms that were produced by the diff fuels. The cheaper fuels made a much smaller, more irregular shape than the higher priced fuels, and produced much less power as well. That was at one of the Stihl service schools I went to, and I've been trying to get them to put it on video, maybe they will someday.

Boraticus, I can understand how you feel about those with seemingly zero mechanical ability, but I doubt you're an expert in IT, dentistry, brick-laying, etc. My brother has his Piled Higher and Deeper in computer science, but he couldn't change his own oil if you paid him $100. The way I see it, everyone has something they're good at, and bad at.
_________________________

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#2292262 - 06/19/11 07:43 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
"
Boraticus, I can understand how you feel about those with seemingly zero mechanical ability, but I doubt you're an expert in IT"

I may not be an expert but I know for sure that water will not enter a tightly sealed plastic gas container, which you happen to claim it does in the following quote:

"The alcohol will draw water right from the air and into the gas, whether the gas is in the machine or in the can."

If I'm incorrect, by all means, please tell us how moisture can permeate 1/8" thick plastic to contaminate the fuel??? I'd be interested to understand the physics of such a feat.

It would appear that I'm not the only one who's not an expert.

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#2292313 - 06/19/11 08:49 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: boraticus]
scurvy Offline


Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 2277
Loc: Chicago IL USA
Originally Posted By: boraticus
If I'm incorrect, by all means, please tell us how moisture can permeate 1/8" thick plastic to contaminate the fuel??? I'd be interested to understand the physics of such a feat.


It's not nearly as difficult to understand as you make it out to be.

The gas can contains liquid fuel and atmospheric air. Every time you open it, fresh air enters the gas can. Every time you pour off fuel, atmospheric air enters the can to displace the liquid volume dispensed. Even when it's 'sealed' some minute amount of air exchange takes place - especially with plastic jerry cans in an outdoor shed. The large temperature swings & direct sunlight if outside can cause differential growth, not to mention greatly raise the internal pressure during the day (causing it to vent fumes) and lower it significantly at night (which makes it suck in fresh air).

Over time, this can cause the very hygroscopic ethanol (azetrope) fraction of gasoline to suck water out of the trapped air in the jerry can. Unless you're storing fuel in ziploc bags, it happens.
_________________________
You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

06 VW Golf TDI - M1/Delvac 1300 7.5w40ish, HU726/2x, EaBP90
12 Mazda 5 - M1 0W20, FL910S

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#2292314 - 06/19/11 08:51 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
scurvy Offline


Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 2277
Loc: Chicago IL USA
Originally Posted By: car54
I'm trying to figure out how to photograph it, because the trufuel 40:1 I bought isnt's red OR green, it's almost clear with barely any tint to it, no way they use stihl HP ultra in this stuff, it's nowhere near as green as the motomix 50:1.


Photograph it outdoors on a cloudy day (strong but diffused light) with a bright white background behind your Erlenmeyer flasks - sheet of paper or (clean) white t-shirt perhaps. That should help show the color differences better.
_________________________
You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

06 VW Golf TDI - M1/Delvac 1300 7.5w40ish, HU726/2x, EaBP90
12 Mazda 5 - M1 0W20, FL910S

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#2292345 - 06/19/11 09:26 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
car54 Offline


Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 239
Loc: Wdbg, VA
I already used all the motomix and 50:1 trufuel.

That's what I was getting at. I have a photo box to shoot in. but it's all gone at this point. =(

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#2292354 - 06/19/11 09:39 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: scurvy]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: scurvy
Originally Posted By: boraticus
If I'm incorrect, by all means, please tell us how moisture can permeate 1/8" thick plastic to contaminate the fuel??? I'd be interested to understand the physics of such a feat.


It's not nearly as difficult to understand as you make it out to be.

The gas can contains liquid fuel and atmospheric air. Every time you open it, fresh air enters the gas can. Every time you pour off fuel, atmospheric air enters the can to displace the liquid volume dispensed. Even when it's 'sealed' some minute amount of air exchange takes place - especially with plastic jerry cans in an outdoor shed. The large temperature swings & direct sunlight if outside can cause differential growth, not to mention greatly raise the internal pressure during the day (causing it to vent fumes) and lower it significantly at night (which makes it suck in fresh air).

Over time, this can cause the very hygroscopic ethanol (azetrope) fraction of gasoline to suck water out of the trapped air in the jerry can. Unless you're storing fuel in ziploc bags, it happens.


The volume of air and durations of time involved in brief exposures as you've outlined will not contribute significantly to water absorption. In reality, under those conditions, it would be miniscule. I swear, by the way some people talk, you'd think Niagara Falls pours into the fuel can ever time we take the cap off.

When I leave fuel cans for six months at a time, the cap is secured tightly. I never get moisture via "osmosis" through the container.

I have friends who fly plastic drums of avgas and regular pump gas up to the Arctic for future flights and activities. They cache their fuel in very remote strategic locations for sometimes up to a year. Strangely enough, they never have problems with moisture absorption either.

Careless fuel management may contribute to moisture absorption. From my many years of experience, and the experience of others I know, careful fuel management will virtually eliminate it.

There's no need to purchase $7.00 per liter for ethanol free fuel if people manage their fuel storage properly. None whatsoever.

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#2292378 - 06/19/11 10:08 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: boraticus]
660mag Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 318
Loc: TEXAS
Something else to consider is that it's not about the ratio of water to 5gal of fuel, but the water is heaver and will only see your piece of equipment at the end of your fuel stock. By that point the fuel:water ratio could be as high as... well very high.
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#2292391 - 06/19/11 10:26 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: boraticus]
engineerscott Offline


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 364
Loc: Southeast USA
Originally Posted By: boraticus
"
Boraticus, I can understand how you feel about those with seemingly zero mechanical ability, but I doubt you're an expert in IT"

I may not be an expert but I know for sure that water will not enter a tightly sealed plastic gas container, which you happen to claim it does in the following quote:

"The alcohol will draw water right from the air and into the gas, whether the gas is in the machine or in the can."

If I'm incorrect, by all means, please tell us how moisture can permeate 1/8" thick plastic to contaminate the fuel??? I'd be interested to understand the physics of such a feat.

It would appear that I'm not the only one who's not an expert.


Wrong. High Density Polyethylene (HDPE), which is what most gas can/tanks are make of, is permeable to both water vapor and oxygen. It takes time for water vapor or O2 to migrate through, but it definitely happens. In fact most plastics are relatively permeable unless they've had a layer of aluminum or other metal deposited with vacuum vapor deposition. That's why plastic food packaging (potato chips, MREs, juice pouches, etc) have a shiny aluminum layer if you look at them.

So, while you don't think water vapor can migrate through plastic, I assure you it can, certainly over a period of a month or more in a high humidity environment. Temperature will accelerate this btw.

Also, as the other poster mentioned, there is the air in the container to consider. Certainly in a half full container opened in a humid environment there is a decent amount of water vapor in the container.





Edited by engineerscott (06/19/11 10:30 PM)

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#2292421 - 06/19/11 11:15 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
doitmyself Offline


Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4830
Loc: MI
Can you guys provide some facts (data) that shows:

1. That moisture can migrate through plastic enough to cause a problem with things like gasoline or brake fluid.

2. That atmospheric moisture (not rain or condensation, but vapor/humidity)could be absorbed in enough quantity to cause problems in gasoline.

I searched, but only found one old 1995 document that refutes #2, but I haven't taken the time to access it's accuracy.

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#2292439 - 06/19/11 11:56 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
car54 Offline


Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 239
Loc: Wdbg, VA
here is the trufuel 40:1 I picked up at walmart for $3.97. Appears slightly green against white.


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#2292664 - 06/20/11 10:53 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: doitmyself]
engineerscott Offline


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 364
Loc: Southeast USA
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Can you guys provide some facts (data) that shows:

1. That moisture can migrate through plastic enough to cause a problem with things like gasoline or brake fluid.

2. That atmospheric moisture (not rain or condensation, but vapor/humidity)could be absorbed in enough quantity to cause problems in gasoline.

I searched, but only found one old 1995 document that refutes #2, but I haven't taken the time to access it's accuracy.


Here's a document that shows the gas permeability of common plastics.

http://www.dynalabcorp.com/files/Use%20and%20Care%20of%20Plastics.pdf

They don't show H2O permeability but they do show O2, CO2, and N2. They show water absorption, but that is not the same as permeability. HDPE is sort of a middle of the road plastic in terms of permeability, better than LDPE, not as good a PFA or Acrylic, but still relatively permeable, particularly to CO2 and O2. I've see engineering handbooks that listed the H2O permeability of HDPE and it was about 90% of the O2 permeability if I recall.

HDPE is commonly used in fuel tanks for cars, however in this application the tank is typically refilled often enough that it is not an issue. For fuel storage tanks (portable gas cans for example) there is an issue for long term storage (think months). It's not a huge issue and it may not even be the dominate issue in many cases (particularly if the gas can is half full, in that case the moisture in the air space is probably a bigger problem). However, the point is that plastics are not perfect barriers against oxygen and water vapor (both of which degrade fuel). Metal is a much better barrier (in fact a metal can is almost completely impermeable), but you have issues with corrosion. Plastics are a good compromise as there are no corrosion problems, but fuel will deteriorate somewhat more quickly in a plastic container compared to a well sealed metal container.

Lastly, it matters what is being stored in these plastics. Ethanol is hygroscopic, as are most brake fluids. Which is more hygroscopic I couldn't tell you, but obviously more hygroscopic fluids will have bigger issues. In a brake system moisture will invade via the master and wheel cylinder seals, as well as though the plastic brake reservoir. Which of those two paths are dominate I couldn't tell you.

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#2292672 - 06/20/11 11:01 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
"Wrong. High Density Polyethylene (HDPE), which is what most gas can/tanks are make of, is permeable to both water vapor and oxygen. It takes time for water vapor or O2 to migrate through, but it definitely happens."

How many million years will it take for one cup of water to infiltrate a five gallon fuel container if tightly sealed?

The ethanol water absorption hysteria is wildly exaggerated. A person is more likely to suffer from the effects of contaminated fuel when filling their container at the pump.

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#2292694 - 06/20/11 11:23 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: boraticus]
660mag Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 318
Loc: TEXAS
Most water issues are caused by the breeze blowing through the vents of you tank and carb itself.
but picture this. ten drops of water from the last splash of your fuel makes it into your mower and you store it for 6months with those ten drops in the bole. the coating and the bole is corroded but the water in one little spot and rust starts. you go to use the unit later and it starts and sputters for a bit until fresh fuel reaches the bole. later a small piece of rust flakes of in the bole and clogs the main or pilot.
Tiny bit of water= no lawnmower. It doesn't take but a tiny bit to be an issue.
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#2292828 - 06/20/11 01:01 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: boraticus]
engineerscott Offline


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 364
Loc: Southeast USA
Originally Posted By: boraticus
"Wrong. High Density Polyethylene (HDPE), which is what most gas can/tanks are make of, is permeable to both water vapor and oxygen. It takes time for water vapor or O2 to migrate through, but it definitely happens."

How many million years will it take for one cup of water to infiltrate a five gallon fuel container if tightly sealed?

The ethanol water absorption hysteria is wildly exaggerated. A person is more likely to suffer from the effects of contaminated fuel when filling their container at the pump.


You think it takes a cup of water to ruin a gallon of gas???

Not millions of years btw. Less than a year for sure.

Do what you will. I really don't know why you're here, since clearly you know all there is to know.

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#2292879 - 06/20/11 01:36 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: engineerscott]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada


"You think it takes a cup of water to ruin a gallon of gas???"

Nope. It won't ruin the gas. It will migrate to the bottom and accumulate there. The rest of the fuel will still be suitable for use.

"Not millions of years btw. Less than a year for sure."

Wildly exaggerated. One year for a cup of water to permeate through a tightly sealed plastic container????? Please....


"Do what you will. I really don't know why you're here, since clearly you know all there is to know."

I will continue to do what I do, thank you.

I'll tell you why I'm here. To challenge alarmists, exaggerators, snake oil salesmen and others who spread less than accurate or realistic information.

It would appear that those who create and support doomsday scenarios (such as the imminent demise of all gasoline burning engines due to ethanol in gasoline for instance), may be doing so for two possible reasons. A) They just don't know, or B) There's something in it for them.

Not to beleaguer this discussion but, to apply just a bit of common sense, think of all of the vehicles in the world burning fuel with ethanol in it. If ethanol fuel was as bad as the some people here claim, the world would be at a stand still and our highways and streets clogged with vehicles waylaid due to their fuel tanks being full of "absorbed" water. Haven't seen it happen yet.

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#2292913 - 06/20/11 02:09 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
engineerscott Offline


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 364
Loc: Southeast USA
You seem to be under the illusion that water vapor is only an issue if it causes phase separation. That is not the case.

I am not being an alarmist about E10. It does have issues with it being hygroscopic, but this is mainly an issue for fuel that will be stored for a significant amount of time. Fuel that is being rotated through relatively quickly (less than 30 days) will have little to no issue with water absorption. There are other issues with E10, mainly polymer compatibility issues with various seals and plastic components, but by in larger these issues have been sorted out by judicious selection of materials. The largest remaining issue is that the presence of ethanol tends to promote polymerization of some of the other fuel components. Additives can reduce but not eliminate these problems. Polymerization will result in the formation of gums and varnishes, and it is widely recognized that E10 has more problems in this regard compared to E0.

These are the unvarnished (no pun intended) facts about E10. Most users will have no issue running E10 in their equipment or in their automobile, aside from increased fuel consumption. However, for equipment which is less frequently used, or for fuel storage, E10 has certain downsides that are well known and understood.

You seem to have simply declared that there are no issues with E10. Your opinion runs counter to established evidence.

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#2292980 - 06/20/11 03:15 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
Not saying there are no issues. I'm simply stating that much of the hysteria we read about here is highly exaggerated. From my experience and those of others I know, if the fuel is properly stored and is uncontaminated to begin with, the possibility of fuel/water issues will be minimal. In most cases, if properly managed and stored, it will be non-existent even if fuel is kept in well sealed containers for months at a time.

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#2462755 - 12/14/11 06:52 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
bighorn250 Offline


Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 1
Loc: Indiana
There are 2 sides to the ethanol coin; yes it is extremely corrosive to aluminum, rubber, plastics and other metals. It also burns less efficiently and you get less mpg or hours however you want to look at it. It however does have a high octane rating as well as burns cleaner. The outdoor power equipment worlds as well as the marine world are more affected due to the use of vented systems and attraction of water.
That being said there is no reason to use these boutique fuels that cost up to 10 bucks for 32 oz. You can buy an 8oz bottle of Marine STA-BIL that treats 80 gallons. It fights the harmful affects of ethanol. I bought it at Bass Pro Shop and based on the research I did it is the only fuel additive that is recommended by OE manufacturers. I’ve been using it in my boat, lawnmower and motorcycle for a few years now ad it has been great

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#2464397 - 12/16/11 11:01 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
occity79 Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 83
Loc: maryland
Sunoco Standard 110 $45.00 for 5 GALLONS- long shelf life, consistent quality, no oxygenators. Made for high rpm engines.

My own oil of choice at MY choice of ratio- priceless.

These quart cans are just not a good value at this time, maybe in five years after E15 is forced down our throats.

I did buy a few of these truefuels just to get the excellent cans for storing my premix in smaller amounts, for easier carrying in the woods.

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#2469622 - 12/21/11 08:03 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
steve20 Offline


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 3092
Loc: NJ
a big THANKS to Scott for his expert insight into the issues
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#2470664 - 12/22/11 09:25 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: boraticus]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4119
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: boraticus
Not saying there are no issues. I'm simply stating that much of the hysteria we read about here is highly exaggerated. From my experience and those of others I know, if the fuel is properly stored and is uncontaminated to begin with, the possibility of fuel/water issues will be minimal. In most cases, if properly managed and stored, it will be non-existent even if fuel is kept in well sealed containers for months at a time.


You need to keep in mind that these guys are dealing with E10, and that should never be left in an engine during the storage period. Bora, you still have pure gas in your area, and that is a whole differnt ball game... cheers
_________________________
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2000 VW Beetle 1.8T M5
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1991 BMW 735iL
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#2470910 - 12/23/11 08:26 AM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: Bluestream]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: boraticus
Not saying there are no issues. I'm simply stating that much of the hysteria we read about here is highly exaggerated. From my experience and those of others I know, if the fuel is properly stored and is uncontaminated to begin with, the possibility of fuel/water issues will be minimal. In most cases, if properly managed and stored, it will be non-existent even if fuel is kept in well sealed containers for months at a time.


You need to keep in mind that these guys are dealing with E10, and that should never be left in an engine during the storage period. Bora, you still have pure gas in your area, and that is a whole differnt ball game... cheers


Where do you get the idea that we have "pure gas" in this area? We've had ethanol in the fuel for over a decade to manage moisture in the fuel during the six months of winter we endure.

I must live under a huge pyramid that protects me from all of the E10 woes that so many participants seem to experience?

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#2471110 - 12/23/11 12:58 PM Re: Stihl Motomix vs Trufuel 50:1 [Re: car54]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4119
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Bora, I thought you lived in BC...At any rate, you can still buy ethanol free premium, and I use that in all my OPE and 2-stroke engines...
_________________________
2000 Cavalier 2.2 A4
2000 VW Beetle 1.8T M5
2000 Ford Explorer 4.0 4X4
1991 BMW 735iL
"A fool and his money are soon parted" - Thomas Tusser

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