An interesting article by Ryan at Blackstone.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/November-1-2010.php
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/November-1-2010.php
ZDDP What?
- Thread starter Johnny
- Start date
- Status
Interesting....
Sounds like an subliminal ad for B-S Labs to me...lol
One thing is, a lot of these flat tappets' parts are in rebuilds and old vehicles. I think the steel for the rebuilds is cheap garbage from China and the old cars/trucks, are well, getting old. I think this may be contributing to the wear and failue. Zinc is a great additive and is good for metal, it is a known fact.
One thing is, a lot of these flat tappets' parts are in rebuilds and old vehicles. I think the steel for the rebuilds is cheap garbage from China and the old cars/trucks, are well, getting old. I think this may be contributing to the wear and failue. Zinc is a great additive and is good for metal, it is a known fact.
Aftermakert cams have ALWAYS been spotty quality. Moly is what will get you through cam break in anyhow - with a properly induction hardened cam. Most guys dont break them in with weak valvesprings - thats the BIGGEST ISSUE. You dont run in a cam with 300#+ springs. Plus "too bad" on you (unless limited by the rulebook) for not running a roller cam anyhow.
I think the constant referral to "airplane engines don't have ZDDP in their oil so why does any other engine" is misguided.
Airplane engine parts are made absolutely bulletproof, with only THE BEST quality materials with the best heat treating etc as per federal guidelines. If not they might FALL OUT OF THE SKY!
They are also very overengineered. I'm sure the tappet surfaces are very large for low pressure loading. They're also made out of the best metals with the best heat treating and best quality control possible. In addition, these bulletproof engines turn VERY low RPM's.
So what does this article prove?
In addition, I have been under the impression that the auto manufacturers have been making engines with harder parts, put through better processes than they did in the past in order for the new engines to "live" with this new oil that has been forced on us. And its all about them not having to replace catalytic converters under warranty.
Its cheaper to build a little extra durability into the engine than replacing catalytic converters under warranty.
Thats why the manufacturers actually wanted the oil companies to take out the ZDDP in the first place.
IIRC.
Please, do correct me if any of what I've mentioned is wrong or does not make sense.
Airplane engine parts are made absolutely bulletproof, with only THE BEST quality materials with the best heat treating etc as per federal guidelines. If not they might FALL OUT OF THE SKY!
They are also very overengineered. I'm sure the tappet surfaces are very large for low pressure loading. They're also made out of the best metals with the best heat treating and best quality control possible. In addition, these bulletproof engines turn VERY low RPM's.
So what does this article prove?
In addition, I have been under the impression that the auto manufacturers have been making engines with harder parts, put through better processes than they did in the past in order for the new engines to "live" with this new oil that has been forced on us. And its all about them not having to replace catalytic converters under warranty.
Its cheaper to build a little extra durability into the engine than replacing catalytic converters under warranty.
Thats why the manufacturers actually wanted the oil companies to take out the ZDDP in the first place.
IIRC.
Please, do correct me if any of what I've mentioned is wrong or does not make sense.
You are spot on. Aircraft oils contain no ZDDP because it is an ash forming additive. One of the primary design goals of aviation oil is to not foul the plugs, as these engines burn a fair amount of oil. Foul the plugs, fall out of the sky. Different engines with different oils that have to meet completely different sets operating goals.
I'd bet dollars to donuts that an aircraft engine would last twice as long as they do now if they could run a modern, SL additive pack oil. Your car wouldn't make 200K on Aeroshell either. Aviation oils are for all practical purposes SA, SB at best. They are a decent base stock with an ashless dispersant, and not much else. Molekule can correct me if I'm wrong on that.
Ed
I'd bet dollars to donuts that an aircraft engine would last twice as long as they do now if they could run a modern, SL additive pack oil. Your car wouldn't make 200K on Aeroshell either. Aviation oils are for all practical purposes SA, SB at best. They are a decent base stock with an ashless dispersant, and not much else. Molekule can correct me if I'm wrong on that.
Ed
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
...I think the steel for the rebuilds is cheap garbage from China...
+1 Always seems to be aftermarket ones that fail. And they always did that periodically before the reduction on ZDDP.
+1
I have seen many Isky, Crane, Erson, CompCams, etc cams fail after a few 1000 miles. I have seen a few stock cams fail, but these are usually around 150,000+ miles. I have never seen a stock cam wear do to oil failure. I have always seen the main bearings go before the cams when oil pressure drops.
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
...I think the steel for the rebuilds is cheap garbage from China...
+1 Always seems to be aftermarket ones that fail. And they always did that periodically before the reduction on ZDDP.
+1
I have seen many Isky, Crane, Erson, CompCams, etc cams fail after a few 1000 miles. I have seen a few stock cams fail, but these are usually around 150,000+ miles. I have never seen a stock cam wear do to oil failure. I have always seen the main bearings go before the cams when oil pressure drops.
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
Sounds like an subliminal ad for B-S Labs to me...lol
One thing is, a lot of these flat tappets' parts are in rebuilds and old vehicles. I think the steel for the rebuilds is cheap garbage from China and the old cars/trucks, are well, getting old. I think this may be contributing to the wear and failue. Zinc is a great additive and is good for metal, it is a known fact.
+1. The article was too simplistic and the only conclusion was "test more". What's the spring pressure? For an alternative view, see Page 16 of Joe Mondello's article article in this fall's Engine Professional magazine http://www.aera.org/ep/index.html
Sounds like an subliminal ad for B-S Labs to me...lol
One thing is, a lot of these flat tappets' parts are in rebuilds and old vehicles. I think the steel for the rebuilds is cheap garbage from China and the old cars/trucks, are well, getting old. I think this may be contributing to the wear and failue. Zinc is a great additive and is good for metal, it is a known fact.
+1. The article was too simplistic and the only conclusion was "test more". What's the spring pressure? For an alternative view, see Page 16 of Joe Mondello's article article in this fall's Engine Professional magazine http://www.aera.org/ep/index.html
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Aftermakert cams have ALWAYS been spotty quality. Moly is what will get you through cam break in anyhow - with a properly induction hardened cam. Most guys dont break them in with weak valvesprings - thats the BIGGEST ISSUE. You dont run in a cam with 300#+ springs. Plus "too bad" on you (unless limited by the rulebook) for not running a roller cam anyhow.
that cam can be hard as diamonds but it seems to be the lifters that go first then take out the cam. i always check the bottom of new lifters at the store before i buy. 3 out of 10 will have a defect in the finish.
i dont know much about moly but if you try to break in a cam with normal conv oil its probably going to go flat. my friends and i have good luck with rotella for cam break in and the ones with higher lift(over 500 net) usually keep running rotella.
comp cams has issued a few statements on cam break in, parts quality, and oil. its a good read
Aftermakert cams have ALWAYS been spotty quality. Moly is what will get you through cam break in anyhow - with a properly induction hardened cam. Most guys dont break them in with weak valvesprings - thats the BIGGEST ISSUE. You dont run in a cam with 300#+ springs. Plus "too bad" on you (unless limited by the rulebook) for not running a roller cam anyhow.
that cam can be hard as diamonds but it seems to be the lifters that go first then take out the cam. i always check the bottom of new lifters at the store before i buy. 3 out of 10 will have a defect in the finish.
i dont know much about moly but if you try to break in a cam with normal conv oil its probably going to go flat. my friends and i have good luck with rotella for cam break in and the ones with higher lift(over 500 net) usually keep running rotella.
comp cams has issued a few statements on cam break in, parts quality, and oil. its a good read
- Status
Similar threads
