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#200483 - 07/22/06 12:50 AM
Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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I was checking out US patents online and there seems to be a patent for a series of motor oils with radically different viscosities for high performence applications. These viscosities include 0w60 0w70 0w80 0w90 0w100 as well as some negative viscosity motor oils such as -5w40.
These oils seem to be a blend of light medium and heavy weight poly alpha olephins along with polymers of different weights. Theoretically such oils will allow engines to be designed to operate with higher RPM's and such oils will be able to take a greater load. A greater load will be good for truckers because they will be able to lug the engine to gain better fuel economy without destroying it. And of course the wide temperature range of the oil allows better fuel economy and instant lubrication at startup which is a feature tough to find in a high performance oil.
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#200484 - 07/22/06 12:52 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 36180
Loc: New Jersey
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very interesting!!!!
Can you post the link to the USPTO?
JMH
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#200485 - 07/22/06 01:03 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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#200487 - 07/22/06 01:13 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 36180
Loc: New Jersey
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probably extrapolated values...
JMH
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#200488 - 07/22/06 01:17 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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Yes the 0w100 weight oil is composed of
12% additive package
25% ester
25% ultralightweight poly alpha olefin 2 centistrokes
25% lightweight polyalpha olefin 4 centistrokes
10% heavyweight high viscosity index polyalpha olefin 150 centistrokes
3% heavy weight polymeric thickener 3 Shellvis.TM300
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#200489 - 07/22/06 01:20 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 12385
Loc: Northern CA
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quote:
Originally posted by JHZR2:
probably extrapolated values...
JMH
Yup, I found it,
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6713438-description.html
they made up their own extrapolated table. You I could have done it too, gotten different numbers and they would have been just as valid.
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#200490 - 07/22/06 02:35 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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Yes they are indeed extrapolated values but very logical nevertheless. So far it seems the oil has been tested to meet the extrapolated SAE viscosities but the patent does not disclose any other testing as such information is probably very much proprietory.
As far as possible applications for the oil one application that could use a high performance oil is the Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine. This engine calls for a straight 40 or 50 weight oil. Synthetic multigrades have been developed for this engine but their viscosity range is limited to 15w40 for the 40 weight applications. So far wide range synthetic diesel oils such as Mobil Delvac 1 5w40 have been unsuitable for the Detroit Diesel 2 strokes because it only offers the high temperature protection of a straight 30 weight petroleum oil. However a 0w100 oil could offer the protection of a straight 50 weight oil.
Other applications include aircraft engines that require straight 50 grade oils. Again a 15w50 partial synthetic oil has been developed for aircraft engines but 15w ofers only mediocre low temperature performance. Also some Harley Davidson motorcycles require straight 60 weight oil and 20w50 oils which offer either no or mediocre low temperature performance. Dragsters suffering from fuel dillution problems could use a heavy grade oil. Truckers have been switching from 15w40 to 5w40 synthetic oils but 0w40 synthetic oil is limited to Canadadian Truckers. a 0w100 synthetic oil could be used in all temperatures. Also marine and stationary engines that require straigt 40 weight oil could benefit.
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#200491 - 07/22/06 03:06 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 1001
Loc: Baltimore
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quote:
androbot2084:
I was checking out US patents online and there seems to be a patent for a series of motor oils with radically different viscosities for high performence applications.
The key to this is:
"A new type of PAO lubricant was introduced by U.S. Pat. Nos. 4,827,064 and 4,827,073 (Wu). These PAO materials, which are produced by the use of a reduced valence state chromium catalyst, are olefin oligomers or polymers which are characterized by very high viscosity indices which give them very desirable properties to be useful as lubricant basestocks and, with higher viscosity grades; as VI improvers. They are referred to as High Viscosity Index PAOs or HVI-PAOs. The relatively low molecular weight HVI-PAO materials were found to be useful as lubricant basestocks whereas the higher viscosity PAOs, typically with viscosities of 100 cSt or more, e.g. in the range of 100 to 1,000 cSt, were found to be very effective as viscosity index improvers for conventional PAOs and other synthetic and mineral oil derived basestocks."
In other words, they replace VI polymers and some esters.
When you combine these with the vastly improved polymers ExxonMobil has developed, you have the makings of motor oils and other lubricants that are almost immune to temperature changes. 0W-40 motor oils will be child's play.
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#200492 - 07/22/06 03:44 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 12385
Loc: Northern CA
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quote:
a 0w100 synthetic oil could be used in all temperatures. [/QB]
Not at all. A 0W100 would be a "100" weight oil at 100C. It would act like cold oil and cause a tremendous amount of drag.
Something like a -20W20 or a -20W30 would be a useful oil from some ungodly low temperature and it's high VI would keep it from thinning out nearly as much at high temperature as ordinary oils do.
It would also be thinner than existing oils at normal starting temperatures.
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#200493 - 07/22/06 04:58 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 04/05/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Minnesota
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quote:
Originally posted by XS650:
quote:
a 0w100 synthetic oil could be used in all temperatures.
Not at all. A 0W100 would be a "100" weight oil at 100C. It would act like cold oil and cause a tremendous amount of drag.
Something like a -20W20 or a -20W30 would be a useful oil from some ungodly low temperature and it's high VI would keep it from thinning out nearly as much at high temperature as ordinary oils do.
It would also be thinner than existing oils at normal starting temperatures. [/QB]
I'd take a -5w40 sounds great. If it had a high HTHS for that high temperature protection and it would be an excellent viscosity if it could hold the 40 weight category.
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#200494 - 07/22/06 05:01 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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The oil viscosity would be matched to the application and remember this is a high performance motor oil. Applications calling for a straight 50 weight oil such as the Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine or aircraft engines would benefit from reduced drag when swithching to 0w100. If only a straight 40 weight oil is needed then the 0w80 would be used. Likewise straight 30 weight applications like 4 stroke diesel trucks nd farm equipment may call for 0w60. Passenger cars where a straight 20 weight oil would work would get the -5w40.
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#200495 - 07/22/06 06:50 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 53
Loc: New Hampshire
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quote:
Originally posted by androbot2084:
Other applications include aircraft engines that require straight 50 grade oils. Again a 15w50 partial synthetic oil has been developed for aircraft engines but 15w offers only mediocre low temperature performance.
Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. Fully synthetic oils have proven to be singularly incapable of holding lead in suspension (hence the fact that only non-synthetic and semi-synthetic oils are approved for use in aviation engines), and until TEL is no longer added to AvGAS, no fully synthetic oil, regardless of how capable it otherwise might could well be, will be used in the Lycomings and Continentals of the skies.
FWIW, a few years back Mobil came out with Mobil AV-1 and when airplanes that used this oil started falling out of the sky, the post mortems identified a soft grey buildup fouling up the rings. Lead.
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#200496 - 07/22/06 07:08 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 14013
Loc: Retired | Wausau, WI
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Shipo: Agree 100% with what you said. As long as there is lead in AvGAS they won't use 100% PAO oils. Just will not work. I'm in the process of having one of those engines overhauled that the previous owner used Mobil AV1 in. After break in it will get a steady diet of AeroShell W15W50.
The other thing I found interesting about this was the VI improver Mobil was using, Shellvis TM300. Shell does make some of the best VI improvers out there. Extremely shear stable.
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#200497 - 07/22/06 07:19 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 29731
Loc: Oz
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Great info guys (particularly the last two posts)
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#200498 - 07/22/06 07:23 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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At this time it is unknown how a fully synthetic 0w100 engine oil would handle lead suspension as this oil may not have yet been tested for aircraft applications. Currently 15w50 semi synthetic oils are available and I think that if an oil could be developed with a wider temperature range this oil would be welcome for aircraft applications as long as the oil can suspend lead. Also a 0w70 semi-synthetic aircraft oil would be a welcome advance if it were offered.
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#200499 - 07/22/06 07:35 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 14013
Loc: Retired | Wausau, WI
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androbot2084: I agree with what your saying but their not quite there at this time. I know Shell has been testing a 5W50 aviation oil but it's not quite where they want it for now. The 0W70 would be a great application for some of the older radial engines operating in Alaska and northern Canada. Time will tell.
Heck, I'm just having a hard time convincing my A&P that it will be okay to use 15W50. I trust him with my life when it comes to my plane, but he is from the old school when it comes to oil. I greatly respect his judgement with his 35 years of A&P experience, now I trying to convince him that my 25 years of working in the oil business was not wasted time. There are a lot of general aviation folks that just don't believe in multi-vis oils. New technologies are coming but it will be a hard sell.
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#200500 - 07/22/06 07:47 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 53
Loc: New Hampshire
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quote:
Originally posted by androbot2084:
At this time it is unknown how a fully synthetic 0w100 engine oil would handle lead suspension as this oil may not have yet been tested for aircraft applications. Currently 15w50 semi synthetic oils are available and I think that if an oil could be developed with a wider temperature range this oil would be welcome for aircraft applications as long as the oil can suspend lead. Also a 0w70 semi-synthetic aircraft oil would be a welcome advance if it were offered.
Oh, I think that it's fairly certain. Research in this area has been going on for decades, and at this point it would be pretty much a worthless exercise. Why? Well, there is a LOT of research being put toward Unleaded AvGAS, and there is a growing body of evidence that in spite of what the TEL advocates have to say, an AvGAS 96-UL (or some such) formulation will work perfectly well in the existing fleet.
My prediction is that Unleaded AvGAS will be introduced to the market well before a synthetic oil formulation that is capable of holding lead in suspension.
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#200501 - 07/22/06 07:54 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 14013
Loc: Retired | Wausau, WI
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Shipo, I certainly hope your are correct. Would love to see them get rid of the TEL. My plane along with many others has been certified for auto gas, but I will not put that in my plane at this time.
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#200502 - 07/22/06 08:34 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 53
Loc: New Hampshire
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny:
Shipo, I certainly hope your are correct. Would love to see them get rid of the TEL. My plane along with many others has been certified for auto gas, but I will not put that in my plane at this time.
Agreed. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that MoGAS is simply too unstable for aviation use, even if the plane is flown daily.
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#200503 - 07/22/06 10:46 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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quote:
Originally posted by androbot2084:
I was checking out US patents online and there seems to be a patent for a series of motor oils with radically different viscosities for high performence applications.
Nothing new here. This is just SpectraSyn®, SpectraSyn Ultra® , Synesstic®, Esterex® EM base oils used with VII. All this has been around at least since M1 has been advertised as made with "SuperSyn".
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#200504 - 07/23/06 02:23 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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The components of these oils have been around for a while but so far I have never seen a 0w100 oil that is marketed so that would be news.
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#200505 - 07/23/06 03:13 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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There is no doubt that a straight grade petroleum oil has excellent shear stability because these oil contain no viscosity index improvers that can shear back. However
it has been a know fact that for many years synthetic oils have been formulated for straight grade applications most of which have contained absolutely no polymer viscosity index improvers and the multigrade performence came only from the basestocks which had a high natural viscosity index. Yet these old school mechanics refused to recognize these synthetic oils as straight grade oils even though the viscosity range of the synthetic oil was very limited and threatened to void warranties if these synthetic lubricants were used. I am sure that some aircraft mechanics think that only a non detergent oil can be a straight grade and I was shocked to find out that non detergent aircraft oils are still sold.
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#200506 - 07/23/06 03:36 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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quote:
Originally posted by androbot2084:
The components of these oils have been around for a while but so far I have never seen a 0w100 oil that is marketed so that would be news.
Show us where 0w100 is marketed. That patent application was filed 03-24-99 and granted 3-30-04.
[ July 23, 2006, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]
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#200507 - 07/23/06 06:39 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 03/23/03
Posts: 788
Loc: Hopewell, Virginia, USA
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A couple of weeks ago in another thread I joked about waiting for the inevitable 0W70. Now it's no joke! . . .
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#200508 - 07/23/06 07:59 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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It may not yet be possible to market a 0w100 oil. The viscosity of this oil is so radical that most mechanics would be opposed to it even if it were the best oil in the world for high performance applications. In the future a 0w100 oil will be accepted but it may take decades to change attitudes.
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#200509 - 07/23/06 04:51 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 283
Loc: uk
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As long as there is lead in AvGAS they won't use 100% PAO oils.
Anyone have any information as to whether this applies to lead replacement additives?
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#200510 - 07/23/06 06:20 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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quote:
Originally posted by androbot2084:
In the future a 0w100 oil will be accepted but it may take decades to change attitudes.
It won't be marketed because there's no need for it, now, and in the foreseeable future. Virtually all developement is heading toward LOW viscoity oils. If they could produce a 0w30 10 cSt@100C oil with a VI of 360, then you'd have something to get excited about.
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#200511 - 07/23/06 08:20 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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Too many assume that it is impossible to formulate a 100% synthetic oil for aviation use. However a 0w100 oil probably has never been tested for aviation use so its ability to suspend lead is totally unknown yet people insist that it will not work so why bother trying. Also 0w100 is just one example of the viscosities listed under the patent and any widely cross graded oil falls under the patent.
Also one must remember that there is a difference between a fuel economy oil and a high performance oil. For example I use a 0w30 fuel economy synthetic oil in my Mazda Protege and it works just fine. But my engine is not a high performance engine. If I had a Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine I would never use a 0w30 unless it was limited to Arctic use. I would want a high performance oil such as a straight 50 weight oil or a 20w40 synthetic oil.
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#200512 - 07/24/06 12:00 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3133
Loc: Bolivia
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So as long as I use aviation gas in my BMW I should not switch to sythetic oil?
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#200513 - 07/24/06 08:10 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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quote:
Originally posted by androbot2084:
If I had a Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine I would never use a 0w30 unless it was limited to Arctic use. I would want a high performance oil such as a straight 50 weight oil or a 20w40 synthetic oil.
What current Detroit Diesel 2-stroke engine recommends anything more viscous than a SAE 50 straight grade HDEO?
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#200514 - 07/24/06 05:51 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 11077
Loc: The Motor City
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I think you guys are reading too much into this patent. There's a disturbing trend in the Patent Office that started a number of years ago where there are many frivolous patents being filed in the name of corporate warfare.
These frivolous patents are far from the "spark of an idea" patents that usually resulted in something useful for the general public, which is what the Patent Office was meant for. Now these frivolous patents are means of companies holding a gun to each others' heads and a bargaining chip for patent negotiations. The japanese are leading the field in this phenomenon. They issue more patents than the US not because they're more innovative, but because they are more into playing this game.
I cannot help but wonder if this Mobil patent isn't something frivolous along those lines... meant to preclude some actions of their competitors, and not really meant as an innovation or a solution to some problem.
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#200516 - 07/25/06 02:43 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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A good canidate for an exact replacement for a 2 stroke Detroit Diesel Straight 40w50/SAE 50 weight oil would be a 25w50/SAE50 grade synthetic oil with no viscosity index improvers. Such an oil would be a straight SAE 50 grade would have a 465 degree farenheight flashpoint and have the 5 centistroke high temperature high shear viscosity at 150 degrees centigrade. 5 centistrokes viscosity meets the SAE 15 grade for 100 degrees centigrade.
If an oil is desired that meets some of the characteristics of an SAE 40 grade and SAE 50 grade oils then a good canidate would be a 20w40/SAE40 or a 20w50 grade synthetic oil. Both oils start off as a straight SAE 40 grade oil but the 20w50 is VI improved. Both oils have a flashpoint of a straight 40 weight oil but the 20w50 has the 5 centistroke high temperature high shear viscosity at 150 degrees centigrad like that of an SAE 50 weight oil.
If a widely cross graded oil is desired for the Detroit Diesel 2 stroke it would be prudent to specify that such an oil has the 5 centistroke high temperature high shear viscosity at 150 degrees farenheight of an SAE 50 grade oil. A 0w50 oil would therefore be too thin and a 0w60 oil would be required to meet the 5 centistroke grade. 5w40 would be too thin but a 5w50, 10w50 or 15w50 oil would work.
However if widely cross graded oils are not trusted it may be prudent to specify an oil that exceeds the high temperature high shear viscosity of an SAE 50 grade oil. Thus an oil that has a 6 centistroke viscosity at 150 degrees centigrade could be specified. (6 centistrokes is SAE 20 at 100 degrees centigrade)Therefore a good canidate oil for the Detroit Diesel 2 stroke would be the 0w80 grade oil, 5w70 or the 10w60.
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#200517 - 07/25/06 12:03 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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quote:
Originally posted by Kestas:
I think you guys are reading too much into this patent. There's a disturbing trend in the Patent Office that started a number of years ago where there are many frivolous patents being filed in the name of corporate warfare.
These frivolous patents are far from the "spark of an idea" patents that usually resulted in something useful for the general public, which is what the Patent Office was meant for. Now these frivolous patents are means of companies holding a gun to each others' heads and a bargaining chip for patent negotiations. The japanese are leading the field in this phenomenon. They issue more patents than the US not because they're more innovative, but because they are more into playing this game.
I cannot help but wonder if this Mobil patent isn't something frivolous along those lines... meant to preclude some actions of their competitors, and not really meant as an innovation or a solution to some problem.
BINGO! Congress keeps making Intellectual Property more and more valuable by extending the copyright/patent periods. (70 yrs after author's death, now, IIRC, while originally it was 7 years, period.)
Hint for the short-sighted - most major advancements are really incremental. The big ideas that change the world almost never happen on the first attempt, but develop when someone improves upon a not-quite-successful prototype.
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#200518 - 07/25/06 12:10 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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quote:
Originally posted by androbot2084:
Therefore a good canidate oil for the Detroit Diesel 2 stroke would be the 0w80 grade oil, 5w70 or the 10w60.
I guess Detroit Diesel blew it when they developed the Power Guard 93K214 specification. Too bad they didn't know that you know more about their engines then they do. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif) ![[LOL!]](graemlins/lol.gif)
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#200519 - 07/25/06 04:01 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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I was wondering how they last like they do without these yet to be developed oils ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif) I'm no diesel jock ..but I never heard too much xw-anything in two stroke diesels. Multivisc oils are not typically used AFAIK. There are ash issues. side note: Now patent laws can surely have evolved ..but I know that Kodak developed and patented about 7 types of instant developing film ..and never brought them to market. The idea was to preempt Polaroid and corner them in an antiquated box. Polaroid sued and, at the time anyway, effectively established that patenting for the sole purpose of preventing something from coming to market rendered the patent vulnerable. That is, you actually have to manufacture the product to have the patent fully enforced.
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#200520 - 07/25/06 06:07 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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Gary, I believe that was quite a long time ago. Intellectual property laws and how they have been practiced, have changed quite a bit in the past 25-30 years, especially since DRM. Heck, have a look at how these shysters make a good living just litigating the current mess. http://www.ipww.comOn a brighter note, the Supreme Court may be restoring some common sense to the current IP Tower of Babel. http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1153744535390
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#200521 - 07/25/06 06:17 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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![[Off Topic!]](graemlins/offtopic.gif) One of my favorite lawyer stories, not sure if it's true, but I like it nontheless: Charlotte, NC lawyer purchased a box of very rare and expensive cigars, then insured them against fire, among other things. Within a month, having smoked his entire stockpile of these great cigars and without yet having made even his first premium payment on the policy, the lawyer filed claim against the insurance company.
In his claim, the lawyer stated the cigars were "lost in a series of small fires."
The insurance company refused to pay, citing the obvious reason that the man had consumed the cigars in the normal fashion.
The lawyer sued and WON! (Stay with me.) In delivering the ruling, the judge agreed with the insurance company that the claim was frivolous. The judge stated nevertheless that the lawyer "held a policy from the company in which it had warranted that the cigars were insurable and also guaranteed that it would insure them against fire, without defining what is considered to be unacceptable fire" and was obligated to pay the claim. Rather than endure lengthy and costly appeal process, the insurance company accepted the ruling and paid $15,000 to the lawyer for his loss of the rare cigars lost in the "fires."
NOW FOR THE BEST PART...
After the lawyer cashed the check, the insurance company had him arrested on 24 counts of ARSON!!! With his own insurance claim and testimony from previous case being used against him, the lawyer was convicted of intentionally burning his insured property and was sentenced to 24 months in jail and a $24,000 fine.
This is a true story and was the First Place winner in the recent Criminal Lawyers Award Contest.
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#200522 - 07/25/06 07:23 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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quote:
Originally posted by 427Z06:
Gary, I believe that was quite a long time ago.
Sure was. 30 years ago ..as you mention ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
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#200523 - 07/25/06 08:14 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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The Power Guard 93K214 Specification licenses 5w40 and 15w40 engine oils but only deals with the Detroit Diesel 4 stroke engines.
Detroit Diesel allows the use of synthetic oil for the Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engines but these oils must not contain any viscosity index improvers. Mobilgard 1 20w40 synthetic oil is recommended by Mobil for the Detroit Diesel 2 stroke and is a true SAE 40 engine oil with no viscosity index improvers. There are lots of advantages to using multigrade synthetic oils in a Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine but multigrade oils got a bad name because too many people tried to use petroleum multigrades that could not take the heat.
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#200524 - 07/26/06 04:14 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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Detroit Diesel Corporation 2-stroke cycle engines require SAE 40 or 30 oils of CF-2 quality and with a sulphated ash level of no more than 1.0% weight. SAE 15W-40 oils of API CF-2 quality and having a High Temperature-High Shear (HTHS) Viscosity of at least 3.7 cP are permitted as a third choice in Detroit Diesel Model 53, 71, and 92 engines (must meet 1.0 % wt ash limit). SAE 15W-40 and SAE 30 oils are not permitted at all in the large Model 149 engines.
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#200525 - 07/26/06 05:32 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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A full synthetic 15w40/SAE40 or synthetic 20w40/SAE40 which has no viscosity index improvers of CF-2 quality can be used in a Detroit Diesel 2 stroke model 149 engine. This synthetic oil is considered to be a straight monograde SAE 40 grade oil because it contains no viscosity index improvers but it also considered a multigrade because of its outstanding low temperature performance.
A petroleum 15w40 CF-2 oil cannot be used in a Detroit Diesel. However a petroleum 25w40/SAE40 CF-2 engine oil with no viscosity index improvers oil has been formulated for the series 149 engine and is excellent for that application.
The problem with using a multigrade synthetic in a 2 stroke series 149 engine is that most synthetics are not CF-2 rated and most synthetics use viscosity index improvers to meet the 5w40 grade which is not allowed by Detroit Diesel.
The official Detroit Diesel position on the use of synthetic oil for the series 149 engine is that Detroit Diesel recognizes that a synthetic oil may be of a different viscosity than recommended
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#200526 - 07/26/06 12:55 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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So what's your point androbot2084? You dig up a patent that applies to technology that is at least 7 years old to the market, and then proceed to try to wow us with it and your knowledge of viscometric requirements of every engine on the planet. When that fails, you then try to bamboozle us with your internet googling prowess. Some of which you get so wrong it's obvious your just regurgitating what you read that day.
STOP, READ, LEARN.
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#200527 - 07/26/06 10:31 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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I have seen too many mechanics say that you cannot use a multigrade synthetic in a Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine or in an aircraft engine or in a marine engine or in an air cooled engine and that these engines can only use petroleum straight grade oils or the engine will self destruct. Not only are these statements totally untrue but studies have shown that multigrade synthetic oils have actually reduced engine wear as opposed to straight grade oils.
For example Exxon Elite semisynthetic 20w50 aircraft oil went up against the leading SAE 50 engine oil. The semisynthetic oil actually reduced engine wear overall. This is because most of your engine wear occurs on startup. SAE 50 grade oil simply cannot protect an aircraft engine against startup wear. But 20w50 petroleum oil cannot protect an aircraft engine under hot operating conditions. Synthetic oils however give you the best of both worlds. The shear stability of a straight grade oil and the low temperature performance of a multigrade.
However even with synthetic oil technology we still have a gap that needs to be bridged as far as diesel engines are concerned. A 5w40 synthetic engine oil is generally recommended for a 4 stroke diesel engine yet a 2 stroke diesel engine needs a 15w40 synthetic oil. Some diesel fleets use a 15w40 synthetic oil and this oil works great for 2 and 4 stroke diesel engines but fuel economy suffers. Fleets that use 5w40 for their 2 stroke engines have engine durability issues because such an synthetic oil cannot provide the engine protection that a SAE50 grade oil affords. Thus we have established a need for a widely cross graded synthetic oil. Todays diesel fleets need a truly universal fluid such as a widely cross graded synthetic oil. A good canditate would be a 5w50 engine oil or even a 5w60 engine oil. Such a 5w50 synthetic oil would at least offer some of the characteristics of a 50 grade oil. Because this product would be formulated with supersyn it could make the claim that no polymer viscosity index improvers are used and it is equivalent to a straight 5o grade oil.
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#200528 - 07/26/06 11:13 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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quote:
Not only are these statements totally untrue but studies have shown that multigrade synthetic oils have actually reduced engine wear as opposed to straight grade oils.
Yes, but that's a play on words. It's hard for synthetic oils to NOT also meet multivisc spec's in many cases. When they come up with a fluid with a VI of about 900 without correction fluids,..you can say that anything that has a 100C visc of 15CST is a 0000W-40 multivisc ..you can also say that it's a straight 40 weight that happens to also meet multivisc requirements.
It this the limit of your assertions here If so, granted. Can we move on?
quote:
For example Exxon Elite semisynthetic 20w50 aircraft oil went up against the leading SAE 50 engine oil.[/b]
Got a link? I've tried to find Exxon Elite on XOM's pds site and they only list it in 15w-40. Searches for 20w-50 yield no aviation lubricants in the USA. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist ..just that we can't buy it here according to XOM.
[quote]This is because most of your engine wear occurs on startup.
Sure is. You do know that this is defined as "not fully warmed up", don't you? It too is a play on words ..but has some merit. I think it will shift the bathtub curve of wear a click or two to the good side. I can't see aviation engines operating in such short intervals that they're always in warmup. That is, I would think that they would spend more of their life cycle fully thermally saturated ..where startup viscosity is not an issue. I would think, just from my non-existant experience with the engines, that much of their wear is in the steady state ..or rather that 90% of all wear doesn't occur in the warm up stage in their usage like it does our passenger car engines.
quote:
Fleets that use 5w40 for their 2 stroke engines have engine durability issues because such an synthetic oil cannot provide the engine protection that a SAE50 grade oil affords.
Sure. In non-consumer environments ...if it spec's a given weight, you would think that it requires a given weight. Your point?
quote:
Todays diesel fleets need a truly universal fluid such as a widely cross graded synthetic oil.
Okay. This would make a great line in an advertising/promotional page. Got any leads to when they'll appear?
quote:
A good canditate would be a 5w50 engine oil or even a 5w60 engine oil. Such a 5w50 synthetic oil would at least offer some of the characteristics of a 50 grade oil. Because this product would be formulated with supersyn it could make the claim that no polymer viscosity index improvers are used and it is equivalent to a straight 5o grade oil.
Don't just make it a candidate ..nominate it. Where is it? I was promised flying cars back in the 60's.
I want an oil with a -40C visc of 8.8CST and a 100C visc of 9.0. In 99% of usage, it will not appreciably reduce any wear ..to any net gain anyway in (probably) 300k miles of usage. It will eliminate any losses in pumping it.
I'm still waiting for a lightbulb to go off (I'll feed a little more to see if it really goes anywhere here ![[I dont know]](graemlins/dunno.gif) )
Is this some form of a lesson ..as in teacher:student thingie?? Not a bad way to refine a technique. When someone figures out the point ..you're done (there's a big smile here, pal). Keep in mind that I'm very slow ...so (whisper) iksnay the prosenay and speak in small words. You're not graded on composition here.
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#200529 - 07/26/06 11:29 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Is this some form of a lesson ..as in teacher:student thingie??
More like Raymond and Charlie Babbitt.
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#200530 - 07/26/06 11:39 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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Do I get to be the one that can't count well I need a change.
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#200531 - 07/27/06 12:21 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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When shopping for a motor oil you have to choose the right division. For example if you want the Exxon Elite semi-synthetic engine oil you have to contact Exxon Mobils aircraft lubricant division where they stock everything from jet aircraft lubricant to piston aircraft lubricant.
Also if you want a multigrade synthetic engine oil for your Detroit Diesel 2 stroke bus engine you have to go to Mobil's Marine Division because Mobil's commercial division does not market the product.
Unfortunately a lot of disinformation comes not from the mechanic but the sales engineers of the oil companies. For example I asked a Mobil commercial division sales engineer about Mobilgard 1 20w40 synthetic engine oil for Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine. Rather than reffering me to Mobil's marine division this sales engineer gave me this rant about how a multigrade synthetic oil can't be used in a Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine because it requires a straight grade oil. I then asked this sales engineer about the Exxon Elite 20w50 multigrade aircraft oil for straight 50 weight applications and the Mobil sales engineer rather than reffering me to Mobil's aircraft division instead gave me this rant that Mobil 1 tried to develop a multigrade synthetic oil for aircraft use but planes started to fall out of the sky and after a 100 million dollar settlement Mobil now only recommends straight 50 weight oil for airplanes.
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#200532 - 07/27/06 12:45 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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Gary, let me call Tom and asked if he minds. Generally speaking, those that can't do, teach. Those that can't teach, teach gym. For the engineering profession, substitute "sales engineering" for "teach gym".
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#200534 - 07/27/06 02:23 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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www.exxonelite.com/Lubes/Esson/elite/wear.html#controlMost mechanics will say that a semisynthetic multigrade oil will destroy an aircraft engine because multigrades are not recommended. These mechanics point out to problems with the 100% synthetic Mobil 1 aviation oil which caused oil sludging. They reason because it was a multigrade it broke down because it could not take the heat and turned into sludge. However this was not the issue. The issue was that a 100% synthetic oil did not have the solvency required to keep lead in suspension. Since then multigrade semisynthetic oils have been developed that have excellent lead solvency. This Exxon Elite wear study not only proves those mechanics wrong but also proves that semisynthetic oils offer greater engine protection. It always amazes me that Diesel mechanics refer to Mobil 1 Aviation oil horror stories to prove that synthetic multigrade oil won't work in a 2 stroke diesel engine. Since when has diesel fuel been formulated with lead? And Shell has recently introduced a 10w40 100% synthetic oil for the new Diesel aircraft engines. A mechanic will always say why does anyone need a multigrade when a straight grade oil works just fine? A pilot friend of mine complained about how difficult it was to start up the airplane when it was cold. I suppose the typical mechanics answer is to tell the truckers that they have to keep their rigs constantly idling.
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#200535 - 07/27/06 02:24 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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#200536 - 07/27/06 02:27 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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#200537 - 07/27/06 03:47 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 785
Loc: Western Washington
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Until one year ago we ran a fleet of between 250-900 Detroit 2 strokes. The 92's we had a lot of problems with. We tried many different oils from different manufactures 15w40,5w40,40,30,20w50, etc. The best UOA's and longest engine life was attained with a 40wt. Most the 2 Strokes leaked enough oil on dino, it's like a river with synthetic oil. I don't know why anyone would use the 2 stroke Detroit as a test benchmark as they are ancient history. DD isn't building any new 2 strokes (except for the military)anyway. Nor have the 2 strokes been a big seller for quite a number of years, there last hold out was transit/motor coach industries and they have all moved on and are buying 4 strokes. It was mentioned that these oils would allow the trucking industry to lug their engines more because the oil would hold up better. I'm assuming that we are talking about the lubricating film breaking down in this case, not heat related failure. If that is the case, then this statement I believe is wrong. Lugging an engine will cause heat related failure in the pistons/heads/turbo/after-treatments, but not the oil. At high RPM at load is when the oil will be pushed out of the bottom end. As RPM increases, the amount of force placed on the main and, particularly, rod bearing increases substantially. Not only does the high speed load the components more, cylinder pressure is typically higher when an engine is at high RPM and high load. A low RPM situation is inherently much easier on lower end internal. Lugging is something that would be done with an inferior oil to help component life. I'm not sure what ExxonMobil's intentions were with those patents, however in the form those oils are represented in this thread, I don't think they have much of an application in automotive, aviation or marine areas. They may have uses as industrial lubes and I don't doubt they could be modified for use in many different vocations. I'm not sure I would want an oil that at operating temp (100*C) would still be thicker than most current engine fills at 0*C. ![[Cheers!]](graemlins/cheers.gif)
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#200538 - 07/27/06 03:50 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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#200539 - 07/27/06 09:26 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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To me the litmus test of a high performance engine oil will always be the Detroit Diesel 2 cycle engine.
When testing synthetic multigrade oils in a 2 stroke one really has to narrow down the options to get a fair test. Yes 25 years ago when Delvac 1 5w40 was first introduced it was supposed to be the equivalent of a straight 40 weight oil but today Mobil no longer makes this claim. The only synthetic oil that Mobil allows in a 2 stroke is Mobilgard 1 20w40 a product that is only available from Mobil's marine division so it may be hard to find if you are not a marine mechanic. This oil is one of very few synthetic oils that meet the CF-2 two stroke specification and it meets that specification only and is not suitable for over the road 4 stroke diesel trucks that call for CJ-4 oil. This oil was specifically designed for the Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine as well as other engines that require a straight 40 grade oil such as Marine and stationary engines and because this oil contains no viscosity index improvers it is considered to be a straight SAE40 grade oil with the film strength of a SAE50 grade oil. This oil far surpasses any synthetic 5w40, 15w40 or SAE 30 oil that you may have tested and if your 20w50 synthetic oil is not CF-2 rated the Mobilgard 1 will far surpass that oil as well.
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#200540 - 07/27/06 07:27 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
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Gary, I know you've been here a million times, but I think you missed this sign on the way in here.
[img] http://www.timhunkin.com/page_pictures/a111_don't-feed.jpg [/img]
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#200541 - 07/27/06 08:59 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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I can't resist the bait.... a crippling affliction.
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#200542 - 07/28/06 09:31 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 785
Loc: Western Washington
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I add the "etc" at the end of my list of test oils because I didn't want to be typing for hours. We tested many different oils; one of them was MobilGaurd 1 SHC which is a synthetic sae 40 CF-2. It worked well, but did not outperform the good dino oils enough to warrant the cost difference. Again, I fail to see the relevance in using a 2 stroke Detroit designed in the 1930's as a benchmark to modern engines that share almost nothing other than they run on diesel in common with a 2 Stroke. A quick note on the CF-2 rating, it will probably work ok but I don’t care about a rating – I care about what works (that’s why we tested so many different oils). Diesel engines typically fail to start in very cold weather mostly due to fuel issues, not thick oil (unless it’s a HEUI engine, then it will be a combination, still mostly fuel). We talk about cold weather viscosity and wear associated with oil that is “too” thick. So why then would we want oil that is thicker at operating temps as our current oils are when cold? Combine this with the fact that power system engineers are designing engines to run thinner oil, and there really isn’t a need for engine oil over about 50wt. Top Fuel racing was mentioned earlier in this thread and having crewed on a local Top Fuel car, the oil related problems would not solved by a 100+wt engine oil, IMO. [ July 28, 2006, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: 1040 WreckerMan ]
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#200543 - 07/27/06 11:04 PM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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A 0w100 oil will have the same 40 centistroke viscosity at 210 degrees farenheight as a 0w20 oil will have at 100 degrees farenheight.
At 100 degrees farenheight a 0w100 oil will have the same viscosity as an SAE 50 or 25w60 grade oil and could be an exact replacement for such an oil. Of course not all engines need a SAE 50 grade oil. Generally a 20w50 synthetic oil is a good replacement for a SAE 50 grade oil but we run into problems when we try to design a 5w50 oil for SAE 50 applications. A widely cross graded oil may solve these problems because we are improving both the high and low temperature performance.
A 0w80 engine oil will be a good choice for SAE 40 or 20w50 applications.
4 stroke heavy duty diesel engines typically need at least and SAE 30 or 15w40 grade oil to run well. 5w30 and 5w40 synthetic oils have been developed for heavy duty diesel engines but so far 0w30 and 0w40 heavy duty diesel oils have failed to meet all the specifications. A widely cross graded 0w60 synthetic heavy duty diesel oil could be developed as an exact replacement for SAE 30 and would probably meet all the specifications.
Gasoline automotive engines need a SAE 20 or 5w30 grade oil. 0w30 synthetic oil has been developed for these applications but a widely cross graded negative viscosity oil suchas -5w40 could be an exact replacement.
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#200544 - 07/28/06 12:49 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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(visions of Farnsworth's personal secretary in "Heaven Can Wait")
I think you need to define "exact replacement" before I could comment on that.
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#200545 - 07/28/06 12:54 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 12385
Loc: Northern CA
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Allan:
(visions of Farnsworth's personal secretary in "Heaven Can Wait")
I think you need to define "exact replacement" before I could comment on that.
That depends exactly on how exact you are when you define the meaning of exact.
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#200546 - 07/28/06 02:16 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
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#200547 - 07/28/06 10:13 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 785
Loc: Western Washington
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It's precisely just about almost in the ball park of.........
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#200548 - 07/28/06 10:41 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 53
Loc: New Hampshire
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quote:
Originally posted by androbot2084:
A mechanic will always say why does anyone need a multigrade when a straight grade oil works just fine?
Over the years I've heard plenty of really bad IC engine (car, truck or aviation) advice being doled out, and without exception the worst advice was always from a "mechanic". The truth is that while mechanics may be rich with empirical evidence, they are not (as a rule) trained engineers. Me? I would way sooner trust the engineer who designed and built any given engine (or formulated any given oil) over a mechanic.
quote:
Originally posted by androbot2084:
A pilot friend of mine complained about how difficult it was to start up the airplane when it was cold.
Funny thing about the air cooled boxer engines found in the majority of the G/A fleet, even with a perfect 0W-100 oil (that was capable of holding lead in suspension), a pre-heat would still be necessary. Why? Because the cylinder barrels are machined with a built in "Choke". A choke? Yes, as the outer ends of these heads get way hot (often times exceeding 425 degrees during a climb out on a hot day), the inner diameter of the bore will expand as the engine warms. If they were designed with a straight bore, once the engine was fully warmed up, the piston would be flopping around inside the cylinder at the upper end of each stroke.
What this "choke" means in a very cold start situation is that the piston might very well have a larger outer diameter than the inner diameter of the upper end of the cylinder barrel. If you don't pre-heat, even with multi-weight oil in the sump, you will destroy an aviation engine in short order. Most folks recommend pre-heating a cold engine anytime the OAT is below 40 degrees. That might be a tad conservative, never-the-less; I won't fly any plane that was cold started from below 40 with no pre-heat
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#200549 - 07/29/06 12:07 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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In 1946 Prestone introduced the worlds first 100 percent synthetic multigrade aviation oil and for 60 years air cooled engine mechanics have been giving us a million reasons why a synthetic multigrade oil cannot be used in an air cooled engine.
I had a aircooled VW bus and the mechanic said that a synthetic multigrade oil would not work because the oil has to be thick enough to stay at the bearings during startup or else it would run up into the cooling tower. However this mecahnic sold synthetic oil for use in the water cooled VW's.Today most air cooled Porsche and motorcycle mechanics allow the use of a synthetic multigrade oils but you still have your diehards which are your general aviation mechanics and old school Harley Davidson mechanics.
Now they are telling us that a synthetic multigrade engine oil offers no advantange because of a machining process called choking. Well first of all not all aircraft machinists use the chocking process and actually prefer the straight bore method of machining. These machinist testify to the fact that if chocking is used engine damage is the result because the top cylinder ring acts as a broaching too and a ridge is created at the top of the cylinder. And yes I never heard of having to preheat an aircooled engine in a tropical climate at 40 degrees farenheight. When I was running 20w50 synthetic in my aircooled engine the oil was rated to 20 degrees. Had I chose to run a 10w40 I could have gone down to 0 degrees. Its only because straight 50 grade oils are used that an engine has to be preheated in tropical climates.
My pilot friend was always amazed that the aircraft mechanics told him that multigrade synthetic oils would not work and he had to use a straight 50 weight petroleum oil . During World War 2 he piloted bombers and his orders were to destroy the German synthetic oil factories which produced both high tech fuel and high tech lubricants. So why did he risk his life to prevent the Germans from using synthetic lubricants when he should have allowed the Germans to sabatoge their own airplanes?
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#200550 - 07/29/06 01:25 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 53
Loc: New Hampshire
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Dude, I think you missed my point (or at least part of it). Personally I have no problem using oils such as AeroShell Multigrade 15W-50 Semi-Synthetic Ashless Dispersant Engine Oil in my O-300, and I never said that there wasn't any benefit to using such an oil. What I did say was that I wouldn't fly a plane that wasn't pre-heated if the OAT was below 40 Fahrenheit, even if Semi-Synthetic multigrade oil is in the sump.
Why?
1) The vast majority of cylinder suppliers (Superior, ECI, Lycoming and TCM) machine their cylinders with choke. That's a fact that in not open to discussion. True, there are some A&P's that choose to straight bore used cylinders but that ain't how the engines were designed and I wouldn't allow such a cylinder on my plane. That also gets back to my previous argument regarding "bad advice from mechanics". Personally, I trust the engineers who designed these engines (even if it was sixty years or more ago) than I do some A&P who think he or she has a better answer.
2) Curious about this very issue, an A&P that I worked with in New Jersey popped a new set of cylinders and pistons into the refrigerator and cooled them down to somewhere south of 40 (but above freezing). He then pulled them out and "Miced" (sp?) them to see what the tolerances were like. Two of the six cylinder pairs showed numbers alarmingly close to minimum tolerance where the O.D. of the pistons were very near I.D. of the cylinders. He then put the set in the freezer and brought them down to near zero and “Miced" them again. The four that were within tolerance when refrigerated were no longer and the two that were problematic showed smaller cylinder I.D.s than the piston O.D.s.
Like I stated before, pre-heating below 40 is probably a little conservative, however, if his test of only six cylinder assemblies doesn't illustrate the importance of pre-heating, I don't know what does.
Regarding the German use of synthetic aviation oil: It's been a while since I researched this and so my memory is a little hazy on the issue. That having been said, I seem to remember two salient points that you failed to mention:
1) The Germans did NOT use TEL in their aviation fuels during the war (and as such ran much lower compression ratios in their airplane engines).
2) The Germans used their synthetic oil not just in aircraft engines but all engines. Why? As I understand it, they simply didn't have enough crude oil to go around (think Operation Tidal Wave), and so they used every non petroleum resource available where and when they could.
As a side note, it is also my understanding that the German synthetic oil (for all IC engines) of WWII was no where near as good as our petroleum based oils of that era.
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#200551 - 08/01/06 03:53 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 53
Loc: New Hampshire
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quote:
Originally posted by androbot2084:
My pilot friend was always amazed that the aircraft mechanics told him that multigrade synthetic oils would not work and he had to use a straight 50 weight petroleum oil . During World War 2 he piloted bombers and his orders were to destroy the German synthetic oil factories which produced both high tech fuel and high tech lubricants. So why did he risk his life to prevent the Germans from using synthetic lubricants when he should have allowed the Germans to sabatoge their own airplanes?
So, with the thought of the German synthetic oil industry in mind, I did a little research. It seems that the only thing that WWII German synthetic oil has in common with our modern Group IV and Group V lubricants is the "Synthetic" moniker.
So, what is the difference? Simple, Group IV and Group V oils use base stocks that are products of a modern chemistry lab (albeit a BIG one), while WWII vintage German "Synthetic" oils used base stocks that were products of a ninteenth century coal mine. Coal? Yup, the Germans, who were horribly strapped for natural resources managed to produce about 3% of their lubricants from coal, however, the process was so inefficient that it was never able to expand beyond that level of production.
So, it seems that the German Synthetic oils were in essence fossil based and most likely were fairly near conventional petrolium based oils with regard to their makeup. The good news for them was that when they managed to capture some Allied AvGAS (complete with its very high dose of TEL), the aviation oils that they used were more than capable of holding the lead in suspension.
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#200552 - 08/01/06 03:58 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Modesto,CA
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During the battle of Stallingrad conventional oils would gel in the cold weather which meant tanks would not start and guns would not recoil so the German high command ordered the production of synthetic lubricants that would have better cold temperature properties.
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#200553 - 08/01/06 04:09 AM
Re: Mobil Patents 0w100 High Performance Motor Oil
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Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 53
Loc: New Hampshire
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quote:
Originally posted by androbot2084:
During the battle of Stallingrad conventional oils would gel in the cold weather which meant tanks would not start and guns would not recoil so the German high command ordered the production of synthetic lubricants that would have better cold temperature properties.
As we've all found out since 1999, the term "Synthetic Oil" doesn't mean much. You aren't honestly trying to tell us that you think the German stuff was a Group IV or a Group V. Are you?
BTW, the German "Synthetic Oil" industry predates the siege at Stallingrad by a couple of years.
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