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#1966465 - 07/26/10 07:30 PM M1 AFE 0w-30?
asiancivicmaniac Offline


Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 4045
Loc: FL
Just came home from WM with a 5qt jug of M1 AFE 0w-30 for an oil change in our Camry with the 2az-fe. Did a search and didn't find much on it. Is it good stuff? Plan on a 7.5k oci.

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#1966469 - 07/26/10 07:35 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: asiancivicmaniac]
Johnny Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 14013
Loc: Retired | Wausau, WI
Should be able to handle 7.5K without a problem. I personally have not used the 0W-30 but I was very impressed with the AFE 0W-20 last winter.

Maybe daman will chime in as I believe he uses this oil with great results.

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#1966511 - 07/26/10 07:57 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Johnny]
aquariuscsm Online   content


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 9720
Loc: South Texas,USA
Hey Johnny,this may be a super dumb noob-ish posted a zillion and one times question,but what`s the difference between GF4 and GF5 oil? Reason I ask is that I saw at Walmart yesterday that they finally have the new label GF5 Pennzoil yb 20W50 :^)I had to buy some ATF for my power steering. It was a lil low. Guess it`s about time seeing it`s 14 year old fluid,haha! I drained it and refilled it with Pennzoil Dexron ATF. The oil bug almost bit me as I came VERY close to buying 5 quarts of it (the GF 5 yb 20W50).
_________________________
1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Syntec 10W40/Fram Ultra
Amsoil MTG(tranny)
Amsoil 80W90 GL5(rear diff)
Mobil 1 ATF
Redline Water Wetter

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#1966559 - 07/26/10 08:53 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: aquariuscsm]
sicko Offline


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 921
Loc: Virginia
M1 AFE 0w-30 is good stuff. I've been using it in my Subaru (non-turbo) and have no complaints about it. I bought four OCIs worth of it back when they had the $10 rebates going on them, I'm on my second one right now and like I said I've got no complaints

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#1966579 - 07/26/10 09:16 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: sicko]
Miata04 Offline


Registered: 08/18/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Pennsylvania
+1 Switched to the M1 0W-30 AFE from M1 5W-30 in my 04' Miata LS, startup HLA noise vanished (a problem with Miatas) and got 35+ mpg on my last highway trip...also use the M1 filters

______________________________________________________
04 Miata LS 6-speed 15K M1 0w-30 M1-108
02 Honda Accord SE Coupe AT 65K M1 5W-20 M1-104
2010 Honda Civic EX Coupe AT 16K M1 5W-20 M1-110

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#1966595 - 07/26/10 09:33 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Miata04]
garlicbreadman Offline


Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 741
Loc: USA
engine ran rougher and was louder on my k24a2 engine

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#1966647 - 07/26/10 10:46 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: aquariuscsm]
Johnny Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 14013
Loc: Retired | Wausau, WI
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Hey Johnny,this may be a super dumb noob-ish posted a zillion and one times question,but what`s the difference between GF4 and GF5 oil? Reason I ask is that I saw at Walmart yesterday that they finally have the new label GF5 Pennzoil yb 20W50 :^)I had to buy some ATF for my power steering. It was a lil low. Guess it`s about time seeing it`s 14 year old fluid,haha! I drained it and refilled it with Pennzoil Dexron ATF. The oil bug almost bit me as I came VERY close to buying 5 quarts of it (the GF 5 yb 20W50).


http://www.gf-5.com/

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#1966670 - 07/26/10 11:36 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Johnny]
Audi Junkie Offline


Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 11247
Loc: PA
It's ACEA A1, not A5 like synth oils should be.

It's also thicker than PP 5w-30 at ALL temps that can be demonstrated.

Do a search.
_________________________
2008 Opel Astra 1.8 VVT 5M
2010 VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI 6M
(APR Powered)

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#1966684 - 07/26/10 11:57 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
chet2 Offline


Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 1408
Loc: NH
my 5 speed focus is getting 38mpg with m1 0-20

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#1966686 - 07/27/10 12:02 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: chet2]
yaris0128 Offline


Registered: 07/10/10
Posts: 1217
Loc: Bellingham, WA
If M1 0w-20 came in a 5qt Id buy it. Id still be willing to try their 0w-30 but its just not as tempting when I can just buy some other 0w-20. I do love M1's voa/uoa numbers and Id like to try it at least once.
_________________________
07 Yaris 56k Valvoline White Bottle 5w20
95 del Sol 117k Pennz Ultra 5w20
94 Ninja ZX-6 74k Rotella T 15w40
12 KLX250S 4k Rotella T 15w40

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#1966691 - 07/27/10 12:24 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: yaris0128]
Audi Junkie Offline


Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 11247
Loc: PA
It did come in 5q.
_________________________
2008 Opel Astra 1.8 VVT 5M
2010 VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI 6M
(APR Powered)

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#1966695 - 07/27/10 12:43 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
yaris0128 Offline


Registered: 07/10/10
Posts: 1217
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
It did come in 5q.


If it has I havent found it yet.
_________________________
07 Yaris 56k Valvoline White Bottle 5w20
95 del Sol 117k Pennz Ultra 5w20
94 Ninja ZX-6 74k Rotella T 15w40
12 KLX250S 4k Rotella T 15w40

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#1966700 - 07/27/10 01:02 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
asiancivicmaniac Offline


Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 4045
Loc: FL
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
It did come in 5q.


Haven't seen the AFE 0w-20 in the 5 qt jugs before. See the 5w-20 for sale.

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#1966841 - 07/27/10 07:43 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: asiancivicmaniac]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10482
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
Great oil the word is 60-70% PAO i use this oil exclusively in our cars and have used it in my Z71 P/U witch works hard towing and hauling in hot summer temps Audi Junkie don't care for it because it don't carry a B5 spec well it's doing fine in my severe service world and with long drains.

i run it out 7-9,000+ no consumption no noise no nothing but a nice smoooth running engine.
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

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#1967000 - 07/27/10 10:00 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: daman]
asiancivicmaniac Offline


Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 4045
Loc: FL
Sounds good

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#1967026 - 07/27/10 10:19 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: asiancivicmaniac]
Audi Junkie Offline


Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 11247
Loc: PA
70% PAO oil that won't make a LL spec? That's a laugh.
_________________________
2008 Opel Astra 1.8 VVT 5M
2010 VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI 6M
(APR Powered)

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#1967061 - 07/27/10 10:44 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10482
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
70% PAO oil that won't make a LL spec? That's a laugh.


It is what it is man all the laughing wont change it....
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

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#1967354 - 07/27/10 01:46 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: daman]
Audi Junkie Offline


Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 11247
Loc: PA
Neither will pretending.

Got any reference documents on that, or just "the word"?
_________________________
2008 Opel Astra 1.8 VVT 5M
2010 VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI 6M
(APR Powered)

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#1967359 - 07/27/10 01:50 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
lexus114 Offline


Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 6009
Loc: Easton, PA
Haaaa,o boy.
_________________________
2012 Mercedes-Benz C300 4matic
2015 Lexus RX350 AWD

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#1968365 - 07/28/10 12:40 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9483
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
It's ACEA A1, not A5 like synth oils should be.

It's also thicker than PP 5w-30 at ALL temps that can be demonstrated.

Do a search.


AFE is lighter than PP at normal operating temps and higher because it's HTHS vis is lower at 2.99 cP vs 3.1 cP for PP. (The HTHS vis spec' trumps the kinematic 100C vis spec').
It will also be lighter at some point below freezing since it is a 0W oil.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1968384 - 07/28/10 01:09 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10482
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Neither will pretending.

Got any reference documents on that, or just "the word"?

Search is your friend,you do know how to do that right? smirk
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

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#1974296 - 08/03/10 12:51 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: CATERHAM]
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
It's ACEA A1, not A5 like synth oils should be.

It's also thicker than PP 5w-30 at ALL temps that can be demonstrated.




It will also be lighter at some point below freezing since it is a 0W oil.


I bet it takes a very very cold temperature before M1 0W30 is lighter than PP 5W30.

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#1974343 - 08/03/10 01:20 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: 21Rouge]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9483
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I don't think so, in fact upon further reflection I think the AFE will have a lower operational viscosity at all temps.
I posit that we know it's lighter at 100C because of it's lower HTHS vis spec' dispite it's higher 100C k'vis spec.
But both oils has the same VI of 169, consiquently the same 100C k'vis vs HTHS vis relationship should apply at temps' at least down to 0C. At temps below 0C the presumably advanced PAO chemistry of the AFE will begin to show it's cold flow advantages.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1974617 - 08/03/10 04:29 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: CATERHAM]
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I don't think so, in fact upon further reflection I think the AFE will have a lower operational viscosity at all temps.
I posit that we know it's lighter at 100C because of it's lower HTHS vis spec' dispite it's higher 100C k'vis spec.


Caterham you are a better man than I re all things oils as you are able to incorporate the HTHS stat along with the traditional 40C and 100C visc #s to make the very interesting assertion that M1 0W30 AFE is lighter than PP 5W30 at all temps. This is of course not supported by Widmans viscosity charts/graphs that we so often have made reference to in the past. [censored] this HTHS # wink2

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#1974648 - 08/03/10 04:53 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: asiancivicmaniac]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9263
Loc: OH
I've used this oil the past couple of winters in the '99 Accord, and will use it again this winter.
Seems pretty decent, and the M1 Os are generally thought to be mostly Grp IV/V basestock oils, although only XOM knows for sure, and they aren't posting here.
_________________________
12 Accord LX 22K HGMO 0W-20
09 Forester 64K PU 5W-30
02 Accord 127K G-Oil 5W-30
01 Focus ZX3 98K Synpower 10W-30
95 BMW 318iC 146K Defy 10W-40

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#1974653 - 08/03/10 05:03 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: fdcg27]
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
the M1 Os are generally thought to be mostly Grp IV/V basestock oils, although only XOM knows for sure,


So we are confident that M1 0W30 is a significantly different formulation than the ubiquitous M1 5W30? I guess most noticeably it having different basestocks?

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#1974656 - 08/03/10 05:06 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: 21Rouge]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9483
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Widman's viscosity graphs are of course 100% kinematically based and therefore prone to inaccuracy when comparing oils of markedly different base oil chemistry and VII levels.

Keep in mind it is still just an extrapolation based on two set points and has always been a problem when you get much below freezing. Now if we could figure something out between the HTHS vis at 150C in cP and MRV at -35C in cP or CCS at -40C in cP, now we would really have something.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1974742 - 08/03/10 06:34 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: CATERHAM]
Audi Junkie Offline


Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 11247
Loc: PA
It's pretty easy stuff people...

http://www.mobil.com/usa-english/lubes/pds/glxxenpvlmomobil_1_0w-30_advanced_fuel_economy.asp

+40c 63.1cSt
+100c 11cSt


http://www.pennzoil.ca/documents/Platinum%20Full%20Synthetic%20Motor%20Oil.pdf

+40c 57.5cSt
+100c 10.3cSt


Does someone want to suggest a temp that Mobil 1 is thinner or are we just playing games? shrug

(not in 1/100ths of cP either) smirk
_________________________
2008 Opel Astra 1.8 VVT 5M
2010 VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI 6M
(APR Powered)

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#1974787 - 08/03/10 07:24 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9483
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Audi Junkie, what you don't understand is that the kinematic meathod of measuring viscosity is flawed and therefor inaccurate.
The much more accurate HTHS viscosity measure takes precident over the K'vis 100C spec' when the k'vis spec's differ.

Read the following thread and it might help, in particular the link the was referenced:


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1858023&page=1

Since we're talking about M1 I'll give you one example.
AFE 0W-30 has a HTHS vis of 2.99 cP and a 100C k'vis of 11.0 cSt
M1 10W-30 has a HTHS vis of 3.14 cP and a 100C k'vis of 10.0 cSt

Which of the two oils is the more robust with the higher operational viscosity in an engine at temps of 100C and even lower. The answer is of course the 10W-30. Anyone with an oil pressure gauge in their car will know that since the oil pressure will be noticeable higher with the 10W-30.

To put it succinctly, the HTHS vis spec' trumps the 100C vis spec'.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1974804 - 08/03/10 07:40 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
lipadj46 Offline


Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 1223
Loc: Western NY
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
It's pretty easy stuff people...


So you are saying that PP 5w30 is thinner at all temps than M1 0w30? It would be interesting to see the viscosity curves under 40C. Mobil 1 5w30 is 11cSt at 40C so it would be my assumption that under 40C is where a 0w30 oil would start to divert from a 5w30. We have to see the real curves not the estimates that the wiseman site generates.
_________________________
2002 Toyota Corolla, 65k miles, Mobil 1 0w30
2004 WV Passat Wagon 94k Miles, Rotella T6
2002 Land Rover Discovery Totaled RIP

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#1974989 - 08/03/10 10:34 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: CATERHAM]
Audi Junkie Offline


Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 11247
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Widman's viscosity graphs are of course 100% kinematically based and therefore prone to inaccuracy when comparing oils of markedly different base oil chemistry and VII levels.

Keep in mind it is still just an extrapolation based on two set points and has always been a problem when you get much below freezing. Now if we could figure something out between the HTHS vis at 150C in cP and MRV at -35C in cP or CCS at -40C in cP, now we would really have something.



You know that CCS and MRV are the least accurately reported specs there are, as many mfgs, like Castrol, simply list the spec minimum and other mfgs don't list any data at all.

Lacking a ~theoretically~ more accurate way to measure cold visc, I'll base my analysis on the crude extrapolation method. Seeing how most base oils and add packs are similar anyway, FOR COMPARATIVE PURPOSES, the visc calc is reliable. That is, it may not deliver a singly accurate number for any given oil, but it can easily project and compare a few products.

Anyone want to bet against PP 5w-30 being thinner than M1 0w-30 from 0c to 0f?

I didn't think so.
_________________________
2008 Opel Astra 1.8 VVT 5M
2010 VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI 6M
(APR Powered)

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#1975071 - 08/03/10 11:34 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
lipadj46 Offline


Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 1223
Loc: Western NY
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Seeing how most base oils and add packs are similar anyway, FOR COMPARATIVE PURPOSES, the visc calc is reliable. That is, it may not deliver a singly accurate number for any given oil, but it can easily project and compare a few products.


Well that is your assumption that they are similar. And you are basing your argument on the premise that your assumptions are correct. Kind of hard to argue with that sort of circular reasoning.
_________________________
2002 Toyota Corolla, 65k miles, Mobil 1 0w30
2004 WV Passat Wagon 94k Miles, Rotella T6
2002 Land Rover Discovery Totaled RIP

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#1975106 - 08/04/10 12:05 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: lipadj46]
Audi Junkie Offline


Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 11247
Loc: PA
...especially when they *are* correct.
_________________________
2008 Opel Astra 1.8 VVT 5M
2010 VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI 6M
(APR Powered)

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#1975162 - 08/04/10 04:31 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9483
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Widman's viscosity graphs are of course 100% kinematically based and therefore prone to inaccuracy when comparing oils of markedly different base oil chemistry and VII levels.

Keep in mind it is still just an extrapolation based on two set points and has always been a problem when you get much below freezing. Now if we could figure something out between the HTHS vis at 150C in cP and MRV at -35C in cP or CCS at -40C in cP, now we would really have something.



You know that CCS and MRV are the least accurately reported specs there are, as many mfgs, like Castrol, simply list the spec minimum and other mfgs don't list any data at all.

Lacking a ~theoretically~ more accurate way to measure cold visc, I'll base my analysis on the crude extrapolation method. Seeing how most base oils and add packs are similar anyway, FOR COMPARATIVE PURPOSES, the visc calc is reliable. That is, it may not deliver a singly accurate number for any given oil, but it can easily project and compare a few products.

Anyone want to bet against PP 5w-30 being thinner than M1 0w-30 from 0c to 0f?

I didn't think so.


Much like the HTHS vis trumps the 100C k'vis spec', the MRV and CCS spec's are much more useful than PP.

Between 0C and 0F(-18C) I'd put my money on AFE being thinner at 0F although I think it's a rather pedantic discussion, as I don't think there's much between these two oils.
About the only practical way of knowing would be to test in a vehicle with an oil pressure gauge and an oil pump that doesn't go into by-pass at those cold temps'.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1975364 - 08/04/10 10:12 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: CATERHAM]
Audi Junkie Offline


Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 11247
Loc: PA
Easy:

At 0f

Pennzoil 5w-30 1858cSt

Mobil 0w-30 2144cSt

Mobil 1 is thicker at +100c and +40c, but you're surprised it's thicker at 0f?


I like how "theories" of "inaccuracy" prevents some people from accepting valid data as fact. "oh, it's inaccurate", so I guess that means the results are REVERSED?

Bzzt. What kind of science if that?
_________________________
2008 Opel Astra 1.8 VVT 5M
2010 VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI 6M
(APR Powered)

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#1975447 - 08/04/10 11:20 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9483
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Even Richard Widman would not agree with you on how you're using his graph.

What you don't understand or won't accept is that kinematic viscosity correlates poorly with the operating viscosity in an engine.
When comparing oils with different base oil chemistry and VII levels y6ou can be off by the equivalent of a full SAE grade at 100C and undoubtedly more at lower temps. You obviously didn't read or didn't comprehend the Spearot paper I referenced previously.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fu-99Mc8G0IC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=HTHS+%2B+friction&source=bl&ots=oczChFl7bF&sig=N17_3mFPKJfJJLrppNmYedmkyqg&hl=en&ei=KzGlS4CfF8eUtgeil-3UDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1975488 - 08/04/10 11:56 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: CATERHAM]
BobFout Offline


Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 2682
Loc: Indiana
Below is an actual conversation between myself and Widman, not paid actors.

Me: How accurate is your visco calculator from -20C to 100C?

Widman: With most oils it should be accurate until you factor pour point modifiers

Me: Hm OK, how would a PP modifier affect the visco calculator results?

Widman: It flattens out the expected results at low temperatures.
_________________________
2003 VW Jetta TDI, tons o' mods with turbo upgrade. Red Line 0w40.
Amsoil * Mobil 1 * Redline * Royal Purple * Castrol * Shell

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#1975791 - 08/04/10 03:27 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: BobFout]
Audi Junkie Offline


Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 11247
Loc: PA
Duh. Nicely coached. All that conversation references is "accuracy" of the calc not "COMPARISON" of two oils by it. Hello, are we on the same page? I'm not trying to produce an exact "measurement" by extrapolating, rather to COMPARE TWO OILS. See the difference?

The question actually is, can the visc calculator predict which of 2 oils, (exotic or not) is thicker or thinner at freezing by the method of extrapolation? I say it can and does.

Thankfully, for the sake of this discussion, the SAE standard unit is in fact kinematic viscosity. To understand correctly, you say the oil companies own published +100c spec is "off by as much as (+/-) full grade"? It would be interesting to see some documentation on that.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
kinematic viscosity correlates poorly with the operating viscosity in an engine


Too bad again, we're talking about cold static oil in a pan, with cSt doing a fine job of modeling it....not HT/HS that you keep bouncing back to. CCS and MRV? I've seen only a few PDS with it that appear complete and accurate. Worth collecting a few for comparison to the graphic calculator. I suspect a strong correlation when genuine CCS is compared to the calc results.

That is (brace yourself), the oil with a lower projected cSt visc *may actually have* a lower tested CCS visc as well!!!

Call it common sense.


_________________________
2008 Opel Astra 1.8 VVT 5M
2010 VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI 6M
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#1975855 - 08/04/10 04:23 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9483
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by the age of 18".

Albert Einstein
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1975870 - 08/04/10 04:35 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: 21Rouge]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9263
Loc: OH
We are as confident as we can be based upon the lack of any real information from XOM.
Reading the tea leaves has led many folks who know more than I (two of whom are having a peeing contest in this thread) to conclude that the Os have more Grp4/5 than either the 5W or the 10W.
_________________________
12 Accord LX 22K HGMO 0W-20
09 Forester 64K PU 5W-30
02 Accord 127K G-Oil 5W-30
01 Focus ZX3 98K Synpower 10W-30
95 BMW 318iC 146K Defy 10W-40

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#1977836 - 08/06/10 12:16 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: 21Rouge]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9483
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
the M1 Os are generally thought to be mostly Grp IV/V basestock oils, although only XOM knows for sure,


So we are confident that M1 0W30 is a significantly different formulation than the ubiquitous M1 5W30? I guess most noticeably it having different basestocks?


M1 doesn't include the MRV spec for the 5W-30 anymore but when they did it was reported at 12,700 cP @ -35C.
M1 AFE 0W-30 has a MRV @ -40 of 11,100 cP so it is 13% lighter at -40 than the 5W-30 is at -35C which is obviously a lot.
So yes the base stocks have to be different as is always the case when comparing a 0W-XX to a 5W-XX oil's.

BTW PP 5W-30 has a MRV viscosity of 14,800 cP @ -35C which makes it 17% heavier than even M1 5W-30 at that temperature. And PP is a whopping 33% heavier than AFE 0W-30 is at an even lower temp of -40.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1977869 - 08/06/10 01:04 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: fdcg27]
AlienBug Offline


Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 430
Loc: Connecticut
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
We are as confident as we can be based upon the lack of any real information


I LOVE this quote!
_________________________
Don

2005 Ford Freestyle SEL, 120k, Motorcraft 5w20 synblend, Motorcraft filter

2000 Nissan Maxima SE, 160k, Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30, Extended Guard

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#1977906 - 08/06/10 01:56 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: CATERHAM]
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
the M1 Os are generally thought to be mostly Grp IV/V basestock oils, although only XOM knows for sure,


So we are confident that M1 0W30 is a significantly different formulation than the ubiquitous M1 5W30? I guess most noticeably it having different basestocks?


M1 doesn't include the MRV spec for the 5W-30 anymore but when they did it was reported at 12,700 cP @ -35C.
M1 AFE 0W-30 has a MRV @ -40 of 11,100 cP so it is 13% lighter at -40 than the 5W-30 is at -35C which is obviously a lot.
So yes the base stocks have to be different as is always the case when comparing a 0W-XX to a 5W-XX oil's.

BTW PP 5W-30 has a MRV viscosity of 14,800 cP @ -35C which makes it 17% heavier than even M1 5W-30 at that temperature. And PP is a whopping 33% heavier than AFE 0W-30 is at an even lower temp of -40.


Thanks for the succinct but pointed response CATERHAM. Good use of the stats.

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#1978058 - 08/06/10 05:30 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: 21Rouge]
Audi Junkie Offline


Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 11247
Loc: PA
At 0f-

PP 5w-30 1316cSt

M1 0w-30 1512cSt
_________________________
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2010 VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI 6M
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#1978109 - 08/06/10 06:33 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
At 0f-

PP 5w-30 1316cSt

M1 0w-30 1512cSt


And based upon the MRV viscosity #s given, M1 0W30 passes PP 5W30 in terms of 'lightness' at a temp lower than 0f.

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#1978167 - 08/06/10 07:24 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: Audi Junkie]
TTK Offline


Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 320
Loc: TN
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
At 0f-

PP 5w-30 1316cSt

M1 0w-30 1512cSt


Where did you get the viscosity at 0F?
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2010 Volvo V70-3.2
Current Fill:Castrol Edge 5w-30
2014 Subaru Forester, 0w-20 Subaru oil
2001 Chevrolet Prism
G-Oil Synthetic 5w-30

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#1978171 - 08/06/10 07:28 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: TTK]
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
Originally Posted By: TTK
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
At 0f-

PP 5w-30 1316cSt

M1 0w-30 1512cSt


Where did you get the viscosity at 0F?


Maybe an extrapolation using Widman's? shrug

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#1978497 - 08/07/10 07:39 AM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: 21Rouge]
lipadj46 Offline


Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 1223
Loc: Western NY
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: TTK
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
At 0f-

PP 5w-30 1316cSt

M1 0w-30 1512cSt


Where did you get the viscosity at 0F?


Maybe an extrapolation using Widman's? shrug


Yes that is where he got it from. That is a good tool for estimates but people around here take it as "proof". If M1 0w30 does have a fair amount of PAO then you cannot rely on a simple calculator.
_________________________
2002 Toyota Corolla, 65k miles, Mobil 1 0w30
2004 WV Passat Wagon 94k Miles, Rotella T6
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#1978909 - 08/07/10 05:18 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: lipadj46]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9483
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Correct.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1978951 - 08/07/10 06:29 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: 21Rouge]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9483
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
21Rouge, your familar with Esso XD-3 which is 100% PAO.
Esso gives a MRV spec' at both -40 and -35C. Even for a pure PAO play the oil's viscosity increases 100% going from -35C to -40:
-40 vis' 22,600 cP and -35C vis 11,200 cP. Or drops 50% going from -40 to -35C.

M1's AFE 0W-30 MRV vis at -40 is 11,100 cP. It's not likely 100% PAO but for the sake of argument, assuming a similar 50% drop in viscosity, at -35C it's vis' would be no heavier than 5,500 cP . That compares very favourably with PP 5W-30's spec' of 14,800 cP, PP being at least 170% or 2.7 times more viscose.

As the temp's rise the difference in viscosity between AFE and the GP III PP will narrow but IMO at no temp level does AFE become thicker than PP since it's HTHS vis is also lower at 2.99 cP vs 3.1 cP for PP. MVR and HTHS are viscosity measurements made under stress (pressure) which closely correlates with the operational viscosity in an engine which of course is also under stress.
Measuring viscosity kinematically is much simplier and very much less expensive than the MVR and HTHS methods and that is why it is commonly used. It works fine when comparing oils of identical chemistry and also for UOA when you're basically comparing an oil against itself in a VOA.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1979088 - 08/07/10 08:54 PM Re: M1 AFE 0w-30? [Re: CATERHAM]
Audi Junkie Offline


Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 11247
Loc: PA
I'm merely comparing two oils at the same temp, not trying to determine the exact viscosity of one oil. This is where people are miss-applying the rumoured "inacuracy" of the visc calculator. It's not "accurate" in terms of generating an actual data point, but it doen't have to be to COMPARE oils.

When the visc calc projects a difference between two oils of 100s of cSt, it seems fair to say one is conclusively thinner than another. This is not even at extreme temps, just at freezing and near zero. I find this "check" to be more reliable than simply assuming a 0w is thinner than a 5w and so on.

For the sake of good science, lets compare 0w-30 and 5w-20. From my projections, it takes a synth 5w-20 to beat a 0w-30 around near-sub-freezing, a dino oil won't do it....it's that close. Anyone want to confirm or dispute this?
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