Keep in mind something, 504/507 requires the oil to be Low SAPS. Basically, all 504/507 are Group III basestock, including Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, if you're one of those who are picky about basestocks.
VW/Audi oil spec question - does 504 replace 502?
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Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Keep in mind something, 504/507 requires the oil to be Low SAPS. Basically, all 504/507 are Group III basestock, including Mobil 1 ESP 5w30...
Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30 is made in Europe, and the European websites identify oil as either full synthetic or "voll synthese" -- or else as "synthetic technology".
http://www.mobil.com/UK-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_ESP_Formula_5W-30.asp
In Britain it is a synthetic oil.
But in Germany it is not.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...%3D1%26num%3D50
"Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 basiert auf der Mobil SHC Synthese Technology™" -- "synthetic technology" means "not full synthetic"
Keep in mind something, 504/507 requires the oil to be Low SAPS. Basically, all 504/507 are Group III basestock, including Mobil 1 ESP 5w30...
Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30 is made in Europe, and the European websites identify oil as either full synthetic or "voll synthese" -- or else as "synthetic technology".
http://www.mobil.com/UK-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_ESP_Formula_5W-30.asp
In Britain it is a synthetic oil.
But in Germany it is not.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...%3D1%26num%3D50
"Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 basiert auf der Mobil SHC Synthese Technology™" -- "synthetic technology" means "not full synthetic"
Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
I will say that I'm suspicious about one thing on this comparison...
What puzzles me in this lubrizol tool is that they show that the 502 (1997) spec has an HT/HS of >3.5, while the 502 (2005) spec has an HT/HS of <3.5. That's a pretty radical change, unless it's a typo.
I will say that I'm suspicious about one thing on this comparison...
What puzzles me in this lubrizol tool is that they show that the 502 (1997) spec has an HT/HS of >3.5, while the 502 (2005) spec has an HT/HS of <3.5. That's a pretty radical change, unless it's a typo.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
What puzzles me in this lubrizol tool is that they show that the 502 (1997) spec has an HT/HS of >3.5, while the 502 (2005) spec has an HT/HS of
I noticed that, too. It must be a typo, though. Many 502 (or perhaps all of the ones I've checked) rated oils are A3/B4 rated, which requires HT/HS >3.5!
robert
What puzzles me in this lubrizol tool is that they show that the 502 (1997) spec has an HT/HS of >3.5, while the 502 (2005) spec has an HT/HS of
I noticed that, too. It must be a typo, though. Many 502 (or perhaps all of the ones I've checked) rated oils are A3/B4 rated, which requires HT/HS >3.5!
robert
Originally Posted By: robertcope
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
What puzzles me in this lubrizol tool is that they show that the 502 (1997) spec has an HT/HS of >3.5, while the 502 (2005) spec has an HT/HS of
I noticed that, too. It must be a typo, though. Many 502 (or perhaps all of the ones I've checked) rated oils are A3/B4 rated, which requires HT/HS >3.5!
robert
Yeah, I noticed that too. Assumed it was a typo.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
What puzzles me in this lubrizol tool is that they show that the 502 (1997) spec has an HT/HS of >3.5, while the 502 (2005) spec has an HT/HS of
I noticed that, too. It must be a typo, though. Many 502 (or perhaps all of the ones I've checked) rated oils are A3/B4 rated, which requires HT/HS >3.5!
robert
Yeah, I noticed that too. Assumed it was a typo.
it is a typo
Hi,
OT - Mobil has variously used "SHC" in labeling their fully synthetic product descriptions for some decades. With semi-synthetics they have typically used "synthetic enriched" and some other descriptors
They have used SHC in their Gargoyle Artic lubricants with a vis of 1cSt @ 100C and in their greases! Mobilgard 1 SHC is a Marine lubricant with a pour point of -54C and SHC appeared in gear oil descriptions but not in their fourth generation synthetic Jet oils! Their SHC gear oils - excellent products - contained "synthesised hydrocarbons and carefully selected esters"
Delvac 1 5W-40 had the following description in 1998 (CH-4/SJ):
"Mobil Delvac 1 is formulated with synthetic base oils made in Mobil's own chemical plants, and specially developed additve components which ensure the best product performance. The base oils are not conventional PAO and esters - which although pioneered by Mobil - are now in widespread use today. They are based on a unique Mobil cyclic hydrocarbon fluid for the best engine wear protection"
and this:
"Hydroprocessing can successfully remove many undesirable constituents such as aromatics, some paraffins, nitrogen and sulphur, and improve oxidation stability.However, though hydroprocessing is a valuable addition to the basic refining and blending process, it adds cost and cannot provide all the requirements of a modern top grade oil. To achieve the ultimate level of protection and longevity, the oil needs to use a completely different type of base stock called a synthetic"
One version was called Delvac 1 SHC 5W-40
Currently, the German version of Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 has the "Official" product description as "Synthetic base oil and Additives". It includes SuperSyn
It appears that it is one of the latest versions-formulations of an ever evolving M1 product range and it may be a quantum leap forward like M1 0W-40 was nearly 10 years ago!
Mobil lubricants available here in Australia still include a number of semi-synthetic nomenclatures - Synth and Synth S (being phased out) and Mobil 2000 in a number of variations.
Formula S and S2 and Formula X2 are another three Mobil semi-synthetics - with Manufacturer Approvals as well
The "fully synthetic" Mobil 3000 range of lubricants was introduced about two years ago. The 3000 range has a number of specialised variation in some Markets and some Manufacturer Approvals such as Porsche
Three variations of Mobil 3000 which are described as "fully synthetic" are Listed by VW-Audi they are 3000 x 1, 3000 x 2, 3000 x 2 Turbo Diesel and all have a 5W-40 viscosity
As I indicated about two years ago it is my understanding that WW Mobil's lubricant product lineup will probably be;
M1 - Premium fully synthetic lubricant range (with Manufacturer Approvals)
1000 - Baseline "consumer" product range
2000 - Semi-synthetic range and labeled as such
3000 - Fully synthetic range (with Manufacturer Approvals) to compete with other Oil Companies
4000 - NIA
5000 - A "segment" baseline lubricant range with ester components in its Patent
6000 - NIA
7500 - Semi-synthetic range
But then I could be wrong.....................................!
So Mobil's use of the "SHC" title for lubricants (including their Delvac Commercial-Industrial range of lubricants) has a long term background over several decades. This transcends the Mobil-Castrol "synthetics" terminology "battle" of several years ago. The SHC title is variously being used WW by them today covering their broad range of fully synthetic lubricants. Their semi-synthetic (or blend) lubricants do not appear to carry this title
Regarding HTHS vis. - what is known as GC (Castrol's Formula SLX 0W-30) once had Porsche Approval. This was withdrawn around 1999 as it did not meet IIRC the extended HTHS and 100C viscosity protocols required by Porsche
I have no Commercial relationship with any Oil Company!
OT - Mobil has variously used "SHC" in labeling their fully synthetic product descriptions for some decades. With semi-synthetics they have typically used "synthetic enriched" and some other descriptors
They have used SHC in their Gargoyle Artic lubricants with a vis of 1cSt @ 100C and in their greases! Mobilgard 1 SHC is a Marine lubricant with a pour point of -54C and SHC appeared in gear oil descriptions but not in their fourth generation synthetic Jet oils! Their SHC gear oils - excellent products - contained "synthesised hydrocarbons and carefully selected esters"
Delvac 1 5W-40 had the following description in 1998 (CH-4/SJ):
"Mobil Delvac 1 is formulated with synthetic base oils made in Mobil's own chemical plants, and specially developed additve components which ensure the best product performance. The base oils are not conventional PAO and esters - which although pioneered by Mobil - are now in widespread use today. They are based on a unique Mobil cyclic hydrocarbon fluid for the best engine wear protection"
and this:
"Hydroprocessing can successfully remove many undesirable constituents such as aromatics, some paraffins, nitrogen and sulphur, and improve oxidation stability.However, though hydroprocessing is a valuable addition to the basic refining and blending process, it adds cost and cannot provide all the requirements of a modern top grade oil. To achieve the ultimate level of protection and longevity, the oil needs to use a completely different type of base stock called a synthetic"
One version was called Delvac 1 SHC 5W-40
Currently, the German version of Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 has the "Official" product description as "Synthetic base oil and Additives". It includes SuperSyn
It appears that it is one of the latest versions-formulations of an ever evolving M1 product range and it may be a quantum leap forward like M1 0W-40 was nearly 10 years ago!
Mobil lubricants available here in Australia still include a number of semi-synthetic nomenclatures - Synth and Synth S (being phased out) and Mobil 2000 in a number of variations.
Formula S and S2 and Formula X2 are another three Mobil semi-synthetics - with Manufacturer Approvals as well
The "fully synthetic" Mobil 3000 range of lubricants was introduced about two years ago. The 3000 range has a number of specialised variation in some Markets and some Manufacturer Approvals such as Porsche
Three variations of Mobil 3000 which are described as "fully synthetic" are Listed by VW-Audi they are 3000 x 1, 3000 x 2, 3000 x 2 Turbo Diesel and all have a 5W-40 viscosity
As I indicated about two years ago it is my understanding that WW Mobil's lubricant product lineup will probably be;
M1 - Premium fully synthetic lubricant range (with Manufacturer Approvals)
1000 - Baseline "consumer" product range
2000 - Semi-synthetic range and labeled as such
3000 - Fully synthetic range (with Manufacturer Approvals) to compete with other Oil Companies
4000 - NIA
5000 - A "segment" baseline lubricant range with ester components in its Patent
6000 - NIA
7500 - Semi-synthetic range
But then I could be wrong.....................................!
So Mobil's use of the "SHC" title for lubricants (including their Delvac Commercial-Industrial range of lubricants) has a long term background over several decades. This transcends the Mobil-Castrol "synthetics" terminology "battle" of several years ago. The SHC title is variously being used WW by them today covering their broad range of fully synthetic lubricants. Their semi-synthetic (or blend) lubricants do not appear to carry this title
Regarding HTHS vis. - what is known as GC (Castrol's Formula SLX 0W-30) once had Porsche Approval. This was withdrawn around 1999 as it did not meet IIRC the extended HTHS and 100C viscosity protocols required by Porsche
I have no Commercial relationship with any Oil Company!
VW504/507 is backward compatible with VW502/503/505. Not sure if it is backward compatible with VW506.01 (If someone could give me the VIN with TD5/V10 diesel engine, I could check it out).
VW503/506 is specified for all 2007 to 2008 vehicles and some 2005+ vehicles,
VW504/507 is specified for all 2008+ vehicles.
I've used VW504/507 on Audi A4 B5 1.8T which was already forming sludge and it seemed to clear the sludge very well.
While VW502 could be used on older cars (some pre-2007 and all pre-2005 vehicles), I would strongly suggest to use VW504/507 compatible oil which VW has taken 10 years to re-define (and the specification seem very tight on tolerances).
The only draw back: the price is almost double compared with VW502 compliance synthetic oil (in Malaysia).
VW503/506 is specified for all 2007 to 2008 vehicles and some 2005+ vehicles,
VW504/507 is specified for all 2008+ vehicles.
I've used VW504/507 on Audi A4 B5 1.8T which was already forming sludge and it seemed to clear the sludge very well.
While VW502 could be used on older cars (some pre-2007 and all pre-2005 vehicles), I would strongly suggest to use VW504/507 compatible oil which VW has taken 10 years to re-define (and the specification seem very tight on tolerances).
The only draw back: the price is almost double compared with VW502 compliance synthetic oil (in Malaysia).
Originally Posted By: autoreign
The only draw back: the price is almost double compared with VW502 compliance synthetic oil (in Malaysia).
Not everywhere. In some places the prices are reasonable, for instance the Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30 at Pep Boys in the US.
The only draw back: the price is almost double compared with VW502 compliance synthetic oil (in Malaysia).
Not everywhere. In some places the prices are reasonable, for instance the Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30 at Pep Boys in the US.
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
Not everywhere. In some places the prices are reasonable, for instance the Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30 at Pep Boys in the US.
Essentially, VW504/507 is hardly available in Malaysia.
As far as I'm aware of only Pentosin and Motul brought them in.
Mobil, Shell, Castrol don't sell VW504/507 oil in Malaysia. Shame on them.
Not everywhere. In some places the prices are reasonable, for instance the Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30 at Pep Boys in the US.
Essentially, VW504/507 is hardly available in Malaysia.
As far as I'm aware of only Pentosin and Motul brought them in.
Mobil, Shell, Castrol don't sell VW504/507 oil in Malaysia. Shame on them.
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Any update on this topic????
With Mobil 1 5w30 ESP becoming widely available, it would be cool to use it....especially when some of the auto parts put M1 on sale.
I have a 2009 Passat with the 2.0T that is spec'd for 502.
I recently saw an excellent UOA on a 2004 Passat TDI with the Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5w40. That oil meets Daimler and BMW specs, not VAG, but it is nearly the same as the ESP Formula 5w30 except for viscosity.
So I think the ESP Formula 5w30 would do a excellent job for you during the warranty period, and after that you can switch to the slightly more viscous ESP Formula M for even better engine protection.
VAG = Volkswagenwerk Aktiengesellschaft or Volkswagen Audi Group
Any update on this topic????
With Mobil 1 5w30 ESP becoming widely available, it would be cool to use it....especially when some of the auto parts put M1 on sale.
I have a 2009 Passat with the 2.0T that is spec'd for 502.
I recently saw an excellent UOA on a 2004 Passat TDI with the Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5w40. That oil meets Daimler and BMW specs, not VAG, but it is nearly the same as the ESP Formula 5w30 except for viscosity.
So I think the ESP Formula 5w30 would do a excellent job for you during the warranty period, and after that you can switch to the slightly more viscous ESP Formula M for even better engine protection.
VAG = Volkswagenwerk Aktiengesellschaft or Volkswagen Audi Group
As I have not seen ANY definitive conclusion on whether the latest VW 504/507 spec oils are BETTER or WORSE than the old gas 502 spec in terms of wear and lubricity (as opposed to the known improvements in exhaust catalyst life), I wrote to Audi of America with that specific question, as I simply want the BEST VW spec for anti-wear to use in my 2005 AUdi S4 V8.
Audi did not acknowledge or reply to my questions regarding 504 vs 502 for these older gas motors.
So, in the absence of any specific conclusion, I decided to take the plunge and run a series of UAO with a VOA for both the VW 502 spec oil (Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W-30) and the latest VW 504 spec oil (Castrol SLX Professional LL03 5W-30 oil).
I wanted to keep the variables to the minimum, thus the reason to select only approved VW spec products, and using oils from the same manufacturer and for the same specific brand OE vehicle line (both the OE and LL03 oils are VW specific).
I have completed the OE VOA and 1 UAO at only 3608 miles and the TBN was already down in the 3's....so I decided to run it to 5K miles, do another sample and then change to the LL03.
I now have the 5K oil sample for the OE (502) oil and the VOA for the LL03 (504) oil in the post. I plan to run the exact same distance samples on the LL03 as I did for the OE oil, to get a direct comparison, and will report back with the comparative oil samples (VOA and 2 UOA for each oil)
Audi did not acknowledge or reply to my questions regarding 504 vs 502 for these older gas motors.
So, in the absence of any specific conclusion, I decided to take the plunge and run a series of UAO with a VOA for both the VW 502 spec oil (Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W-30) and the latest VW 504 spec oil (Castrol SLX Professional LL03 5W-30 oil).
I wanted to keep the variables to the minimum, thus the reason to select only approved VW spec products, and using oils from the same manufacturer and for the same specific brand OE vehicle line (both the OE and LL03 oils are VW specific).
I have completed the OE VOA and 1 UAO at only 3608 miles and the TBN was already down in the 3's....so I decided to run it to 5K miles, do another sample and then change to the LL03.
I now have the 5K oil sample for the OE (502) oil and the VOA for the LL03 (504) oil in the post. I plan to run the exact same distance samples on the LL03 as I did for the OE oil, to get a direct comparison, and will report back with the comparative oil samples (VOA and 2 UOA for each oil)
with 504/507 oils, you'll typically see the TBN start around half of what a 502.00/505.00/505.01 oil, usually in the 5-7 range, to take into account of ULSD.
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VW/Audi does NOT specify the use of the 504.00 in the USA for a reason. The 504.00 norm is a low-SAPS specification which isn't optimum for the fuels in our country.
So, Audi specifies for use in the USA their former 502.00 norm which is formulated with much higher SAPS to deal with our 'less than perfect' fuels.
Note that BMW has also taken this stance with their LL-04 norm. They recommend it in some countries but not in the USA. Again, LL-04 is a low-SAPS product that isn't optimum for dealing with our fuel.
Personally, I would only use the 504/507 product in vehicles that specify it. The only exception would be the diesel engines where I personally feel it safe to interchange the 505.01 with the 507.00 and vice versa. If in doubt it may be best to simply follow the manufacturers recommendations.
So, Audi specifies for use in the USA their former 502.00 norm which is formulated with much higher SAPS to deal with our 'less than perfect' fuels.
Note that BMW has also taken this stance with their LL-04 norm. They recommend it in some countries but not in the USA. Again, LL-04 is a low-SAPS product that isn't optimum for dealing with our fuel.
Personally, I would only use the 504/507 product in vehicles that specify it. The only exception would be the diesel engines where I personally feel it safe to interchange the 505.01 with the 507.00 and vice versa. If in doubt it may be best to simply follow the manufacturers recommendations.
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Castrol SLX Pro OE is also 505.00 & 505.01 rated as well-- which is actually better than other Castrol oils that only meet 502.00/505.00
The latest oil list from VW's website does "say" 504/507 is acceptable for gasoline engines
http://www.vw.com/myvw/yourcar/maintenance/en/us/images/vw_oil_recommendations.pdf
If my dealer used this, I'd be all over it.
Castrol SLX Pro OE is also 505.00 & 505.01 rated as well-- which is actually better than other Castrol oils that only meet 502.00/505.00
The latest oil list from VW's website does "say" 504/507 is acceptable for gasoline engines
http://www.vw.com/myvw/yourcar/maintenance/en/us/images/vw_oil_recommendations.pdf
If my dealer used this, I'd be all over it.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Castrol SLX Pro OE is also 505.00 & 505.01 rated as well-- which is actually better than other Castrol oils that only meet 502.00/505.00
The latest oil list from VW's website does "say" 504/507 is acceptable for gasoline engines
http://www.vw.com/myvw/yourcar/maintenance/en/us/images/vw_oil_recommendations.pdf
If my dealer used this, I'd be all over it.
AJ if they don't have that oil, what are they using in PD TDIs?
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Castrol SLX Pro OE is also 505.00 & 505.01 rated as well-- which is actually better than other Castrol oils that only meet 502.00/505.00
The latest oil list from VW's website does "say" 504/507 is acceptable for gasoline engines
http://www.vw.com/myvw/yourcar/maintenance/en/us/images/vw_oil_recommendations.pdf
If my dealer used this, I'd be all over it.
AJ if they don't have that oil, what are they using in PD TDIs?
Originally Posted By: FowVay
VW/Audi does NOT specify the use of the 504.00 in the USA for a reason. The 504.00 norm is a low-SAPS specification which isn't optimum for the fuels in our country.
So, Audi specifies for use in the USA their former 502.00 norm which is formulated with much higher SAPS to deal with our 'less than perfect' fuels.
Note that BMW has also taken this stance with their LL-04 norm. They recommend it in some countries but not in the USA. Again, LL-04 is a low-SAPS product that isn't optimum for dealing with our fuel.
Personally, I would only use the 504/507 product in vehicles that specify it. The only exception would be the diesel engines where I personally feel it safe to interchange the 505.01 with the 507.00 and vice versa. If in doubt it may be best to simply follow the manufacturers recommendations.
Thanks for the feedback.
This is confusing as Audi of America not only specifies the use of 504/507 in their TSDs, but the local VW/Audi dealers use these 504/507 oils in the latest engines during service. I have not seen any TSD that supports the idea that 504/507 is not compatible with US fuels, or should be replaced by 502 or other older spec oils.
Could you point me to any official VW/Audi TSD or communication that supports this POV? It would be very useful for me, as I'm about to replace the OE oil which my dealer also stocks.
VW/Audi does NOT specify the use of the 504.00 in the USA for a reason. The 504.00 norm is a low-SAPS specification which isn't optimum for the fuels in our country.
So, Audi specifies for use in the USA their former 502.00 norm which is formulated with much higher SAPS to deal with our 'less than perfect' fuels.
Note that BMW has also taken this stance with their LL-04 norm. They recommend it in some countries but not in the USA. Again, LL-04 is a low-SAPS product that isn't optimum for dealing with our fuel.
Personally, I would only use the 504/507 product in vehicles that specify it. The only exception would be the diesel engines where I personally feel it safe to interchange the 505.01 with the 507.00 and vice versa. If in doubt it may be best to simply follow the manufacturers recommendations.
Thanks for the feedback.
This is confusing as Audi of America not only specifies the use of 504/507 in their TSDs, but the local VW/Audi dealers use these 504/507 oils in the latest engines during service. I have not seen any TSD that supports the idea that 504/507 is not compatible with US fuels, or should be replaced by 502 or other older spec oils.
Could you point me to any official VW/Audi TSD or communication that supports this POV? It would be very useful for me, as I'm about to replace the OE oil which my dealer also stocks.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Castrol SLX Pro OE is also 505.00 & 505.01 rated as well-- which is actually better than other Castrol oils that only meet 502.00/505.00
The latest oil list from VW's website does "say" 504/507 is acceptable for gasoline engines
http://www.vw.com/myvw/yourcar/maintenance/en/us/images/vw_oil_recommendations.pdf
If my dealer used this, I'd be all over it.
This SLX Professional OE oil is in itself also a low SAPS oil, with a low virgin TBN 6.4. Oils that meet the 505.01 spec are often listed as "low SAPS."
My UOA on this SLA Professional OE oil indicates that it does not support the 10K mile OCI comfortably in my S4 V8. By 3600 miles of highway driving my TBN was already down to 3.7.
Also, my cam chain rattle at startup becomes quite loud at the 5K mark, which is part of the reason I am looking for a longer life oil.
Audi recommends that the 504/507 oil in the USA should NOT be extended past normal OCI for non variable service motors...which is fine by me, but I'm looking for good protection to the 10K mile OCI mark.
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Castrol SLX Pro OE is also 505.00 & 505.01 rated as well-- which is actually better than other Castrol oils that only meet 502.00/505.00
The latest oil list from VW's website does "say" 504/507 is acceptable for gasoline engines
http://www.vw.com/myvw/yourcar/maintenance/en/us/images/vw_oil_recommendations.pdf
If my dealer used this, I'd be all over it.
This SLX Professional OE oil is in itself also a low SAPS oil, with a low virgin TBN 6.4. Oils that meet the 505.01 spec are often listed as "low SAPS."
My UOA on this SLA Professional OE oil indicates that it does not support the 10K mile OCI comfortably in my S4 V8. By 3600 miles of highway driving my TBN was already down to 3.7.
Also, my cam chain rattle at startup becomes quite loud at the 5K mark, which is part of the reason I am looking for a longer life oil.
Audi recommends that the 504/507 oil in the USA should NOT be extended past normal OCI for non variable service motors...which is fine by me, but I'm looking for good protection to the 10K mile OCI mark.
Last edited:
I meant to add that VOA on both the "OE" 502.00/505.01/505.01 and the "LL03" 504.00/507.00 oils show that the "OE" oil has LESS Potassium and LESS Phosphorus than the "LL03" oil, but slightly more Zinc.
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