cSt @ 100c vs HTHS for determining mileage

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I know a high HTHS equals more protection and more film strength, and a lower HTHS less protection, better mileage. Viscosity is how thick your oil. Higher lower mileage. Lower better mileage.

Sometimes when comparing oil you see one with a higher viscosity but lower HTHS. You also see it the other way. So which one has more of a bearing on mileage?
 
Really?
I would say the opposite.

The pattern is that thicker oils have higher HTHS #s, so it comes out the same, in most cases.
This is not written in stone, as iunderpressure noted.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Really?
I would say the opposite.

The pattern is that thicker oils have higher HTHS #s, so it comes out the same, in most cases.
This is not written in stone, as iunderpressure noted.


http://books.google.com/books?id=Fu-99Mc...p;q&f=false

"With regard to engine friction measurements, correlations with HTHS viscosity are documented for comparisons made in the same engine under the same operating conditions. However, even under well-controlled conditions, the friction-modifying properties of the DI package in each oil can influence the degree of correlation. Under cyclic engine-operating conditions, fuel economy measurements correlate better with HTHS viscosity than with kinematic viscosity."
 
Both HTHS and kinematic are viscosity measurements. Kinematically is probabily the least technically useful but unfortunately it's what the oil industry uses the most and measures at various temperatures of an oil.

All things being equal an oil with the lowest HTHS viscosity will provide the highest fuel economy but since the HTHS vis is only measured at 150C, in comparing oils, the oil with the lowest 40C kinematic vis spec' will also likely provide better fuel economy to an oil with the same 100C k.vis and HTHS vis.
 
Some companies list it and some don't. I know Red Line, Amsoil, and Pennzoil list it. I'm not sure if Valvoline does. It will be listed as HTHS on the spec sheet.
 
Ben - That document "contains over 160 references published from 1883 to 1983".
?

I also goes on to say that HTHS is dependent on the loading of the bearing. So this rating is not absolute, but depends on conditions.
 
FWIW, I consistently got 19-20 mpg's city driving when I was using SSO. With GC and RL, I usually get 17-18 but never had 20. The viscosity is closest between SSO and RL and the HTHS is similar between RL and GC.

-Dennis
 
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Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Ben - That document "contains over 160 references published from 1883 to 1983".
?

I also goes on to say that HTHS is dependent on the loading of the bearing. So this rating is not absolute, but depends on conditions.


It says that friction modifiers can alter the degree of correlation between HTHS and fuel economy, "even under well controlled conditions". The correlation is not absolute, as I have argued on here in the past, but the point remains that HTHS viscosity has greater correlation between fuel economy than kinematic viscosity does.

FWIW, I've gotten marginally better fuel economy of RL's 3.8 HTHS 5W-30 than I did on PP's 3.1 HTHS 5W-30. Is it because of better/more friction modifiers, because of the natural characteristics of esters, both? I have no idea.
 
Question, Ben.

Would kinematic viscoity matter more on a short tripped vehicle that never reaches full operating temperature, while HTHS would have more influence in the case of a vehicle that is usually driven far enough to reach a reasonable oil temperature?
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Question, Ben.

Would kinematic viscoity matter more on a short tripped vehicle that never reaches full operating temperature, while HTHS would have more influence in the case of a vehicle that is usually driven far enough to reach a reasonable oil temperature?


For the short trip scenario, I would imagine it would depend on what temperature kinematic viscosity is measured at.

Somebody get Tom NJ or Molakule in here.
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Lots of variables here make this a complex topic. In a Newtonian fluid (no VI Improvers or similar large polymers), there would be a direct correlation between kinematic viscosity and HTHS viscosity. With VI Improvers, this correlation is often broken because the large molecules in the VI Improvers "flex" or compress under pressure (shear), sort of like a sponge. Therefore VI Improvers will increase the kinematic viscosity, but lose some of this thickening effect under high shear rates of the HTHS test. The amount of this molecular flexing or "temporary shear loss" depends on the quantity and type of VI Improver used, which varies from oil to oil. This is why you can find an oil with both a higher kinematic viscosity and a lower HTHS viscosity than another.

To help understand this, think of base oils as being steel balls and VI Improvers as being a rubber coating on these steel balls. Now, to make a straight 30 weight oil you would use a large (10 cSt) steel ball with no rubber coating. To make a 5W-30 oil, you would start with a smaller (6 cSt) steel ball and add a rubber layer until the final ball is the same size as the straight 30 wt ball. Both balls are now the same size (same Kinematic viscosity), but when you squeeze this balls under pressure (HTHS viscosity) they will behave differently - the rubber coated steel ball will give (lose viscosity) while the uncoated steel ball will not. How much the rubber coated ball compresses depends on the thickness of the rubber layer (quantity of VI Improver) and the hardness of the rubber layer (type of VI Improver).

Kinematic viscosity is measured with no pressure (shear) and will give the same reading for both a straight 30 wt oil and a 5W-30 oil. HTHS viscosity is measured under high shear rates and will give a lower number for the 5W-30 oil (rubber coated ball) because it compresses the large VI Improver molecules. As the 5W-30 oil compresses in the high shear areas of the engine it becomes a thinner oil and poses less internal frictional resistance.

As for the effect of these viscosities on fuel economy, most frictional losses occur in the bearings and ring/cylinder wall interface. Both of these areas are under high shear rates, so all else being equal the HTHS viscosity should correlate better with mileage than kinematic viscosity. Of course, all things are rarely equal, so friction modifiers, polar base oils, VI Improver quantity and type, engine shear rates, and temperature will have some influence on this correlation. Furthermore, if the HTHS viscosity gets too low, friction can increase as parts move into elastohydrodynamic or boundary regimes (Stribeck curve), so the correlation of HTHS viscosity to fuel economy is only valid within a range.

So in conclusion, fuel economy generally correlates to HTHS viscosity, except when it doesn't.
grin2.gif


Tom NJ
 
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
...and that is why Tom NJ is one of the greatest assets to this site.
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+1!

IMO that ball bearing analogy should be added to the BITOG glossary for VII's, HTHS, etc. Best explanation I have seen so far.
 
In the grand scheme of things in a normal street engine which would be most desirable? The little better protection or the fuel economy?

Does a 2.7 HT/HS vary that much from a 3.1 to really matter?
 
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