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#1845 - 06/26/02 05:27 PM delo 400 in gas engine
JonS Offline


Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 700
Loc: USA
I called Chevron yesterday and asked if i could use Delo 400 in my gas engine v-8 inboard boat. He said yes, but i didn't have to. All the reading i have done said i should use a deisel oil (CH) in my engine because it works so hard and is around a lot of moisture. Steve, at Chevron said to use Chevron supreme if it were cheaper. That the Delo 400 had additives for deisel engines that i would not use or need. He said gas engines don't need the detergents that the Delo 400 has. Has anyone heard of this?

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#1846 - 06/26/02 06:11 PM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
VaderSS Offline


Registered: 06/10/02
Posts: 2077
Loc: Cordelia, CA
I'd think that, because of the increased soot levels in a diesel, there would be increased dispersants and detergents, but since you are running at much higher throttle settings at all times,(compared to a car) it makes sense that you'd want an oil more resistant to viscosity breakdown.

Cars generally operate at less than 20% throttle the majority of the time, boats (and aircraft) generally operate over 65% the majority of the time. Big rig diesels throttle settings fall between those. Someone probably has a more accurate spec, but say 40-50%.

[ June 27, 2002, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: VaderSS ]

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#1847 - 06/27/02 01:37 AM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
Bio-T Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 5336
Loc: London, AR
JonS,
Alot of oil problems on an inboard V-8 that we don't encounter in an automobile. Alot of idleing if going out a long marked channel, when underway we tend to engage a steady RPM, and as you alluded to, the amount of moisture in the boating enviornment. With all these factors, the first thing we can rule out is the infamous 5W30 and 10W30 energy conserving oils. They thin out after a hard run and you return to idle it will set off your low oil press horn if so equipped. 10W40 has a 30 point spread, although useable.

Mercury has a Mercruiser Oil that is a 25W40 which gives a 15 point spread. It is rated CH-4/SJ and formulated w/o viscosity improvers. There advertising, not mine. Don't shoot the messenger, please. Remember some boat engines even require straight weight oil, older types. With you living in MN, I would definitely recommend the 15W40 oil like the Schaeffers 7000 Series. I would stay away from full synthetic as it is a good practice to change oil in the fall prior to storage, and once in mid summer if you use it alot. Twice a year changes are recommended as a general rule. Alot of controversy surrounds inboard engine oil, but it is better to err on the safe side than the get by side.

Now why did I not say to use full synthetic oil? Not to get an argument from the masses. From personal past use in a Hydrodyne with a V-8 Ford. I found overall performance as good or better with dino than when I used syn in this case. My friends running the same boat and engine had alot of problems with Mobil I, and eventually changed to dino also. The ironic thing was I pulled my boat to and from the lake with a pickup that had Mobil I in it.

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#1848 - 06/27/02 02:04 AM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
GW Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 58
Loc: Needs completed
I don't think there is anything to be afraid of wtih runing a diesel oil in this application.

Just remember who you are talking to when you phone these companies - the front line guys are there to field all the regular bullshit questions that pour in by the thousands and they are not always the most qualified.

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#1849 - 06/27/02 09:07 AM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
Tony Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 11
Loc: Oregon
A little off topic,But I'm runing delo 400 10w-30 in my mitsu montero with a new motor and I will do a analysis at 3k. I'll post the analysis,Then we can see how a High detergent oil works in a gas motor.I'll be doing more analysis at extended drains depending on how the first one turns out.Tony [Off Topic!]

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#1850 - 06/27/02 05:48 PM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
dragboat Offline


Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 1933
Loc: Oklahoma
Jon,
This is a statement of sorts and meant to help you decide what you can get by with in terms of a oil for your boat.
A friends father bought a 18ft inboard ski boat new in 1976 and it has a 302 with Mercruiser outdrive it gets it's water from the lake unlike yours with it's closed cooling system. The boat is used every year still a with only outdrive problems in the past. It has always had Pennzoil 30 wt put in it. It gets the oil changed at the end of the season then is ran one month into the new season before that oil is changed.It runs great still!It is proped for ski-ing and turns 5100 rpm on the way back to the ramp or the quick turn around to pick up a skier and has many many hours on it. Imagine how far dino oils have come since 1976? That was before the outdated SE designation whichwas supposed to be ohhhh so good a oil class back then!
Your motor with it's cooling system is more like a car,,suggest a good 10/40 for it or Bob's 15/40 Shaeffer for max protection and put it away at the end of the year with fresh oil for corrosion purposes.My thoughts are even though those diesel oils are ok to use in a gas engine,,they would be best used in a city car with many short trips to prevent the corrosion caused by such trips

[ June 28, 2002, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

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#1851 - 06/27/02 05:55 PM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
JonS Offline


Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 700
Loc: USA
quote:
Originally posted by dragboat:

Your motor with it's cooling system is more like a car

My motor sound exactly like your friends. Mine also takes the lake water and circulates it thru the engine to cool it. It is also a 302 4bbl. I am not going to use Delo at this time. I am using Valvoline hpo 30. Although i have considered Pennzoil. But with all the bad sludge rumors, i don't know yet.

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#1852 - 06/27/02 06:09 PM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
dragboat Offline


Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 1933
Loc: Oklahoma
Jon.
My mistake. I thought I had read a post where you use a closed system?

Does your motor have the oilfilter in it's original location? Many do not know a Ford 302 only filters 1/2 the oil pumped which if oil stays changed is not really a big deal especially with cold starts.
I have another friend that uses his 1989 Ford F150 for home A/C repair business. He also is a straight 30 wt Pennzoil user thet I have tried to get to use a multi wt because it gets pretty darn cold here in the winters but he is a diehard and really he has had success running this oil as well,,275 k and one timing chain. I certainly can't say that's a bad report on a oil or engine design [Smile]
That sludge rumor from the use of Pennzoil is unjustified in my opinion. A dino oil can only be run so long anyway any of them before a oil change is needed,,town driving with short trips,water pump goes out and over heats motor badly is not some of the things taken into consideration when a mechanic or machine shop makes their statements. If you would,please take a look at my topic"funny how one guy can give a oil a bad reputation" or close to that name

Edited to ad,I think if you were to use the Pennzoil 10/40 you would get all the protection and cleaning abilty you would ever need for your ski boat or any other high quality OTC oil.Yep, the Valvoline is good as well but the cracked Pennzoil is a great oil and so is Chevron,Motorcraft ect.

[ June 28, 2002, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

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#1853 - 06/27/02 07:09 PM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
widman Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3071
Loc: Bolivia
I think Steve was just trying to be honest. There is a 36 cent per gallon wholesale price difference between Supreme and Delo.
As mentioned, Delo has more detergents/dispersants typically 3300ppm. Supreme has 1350ppm since you don't need as much in a gasoline engine. But the extra doesn't hurt anything.
Personally, I like the Delo because it also has more anti-wear: Typically 1360 ph and 1510 zinc, where Supreme runs 1110 ph and 1240 zinc.
Both are Group II base stock. I've never seen either of them shear down.

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#1854 - 06/27/02 08:00 PM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 1874
Loc: Ocala, Florida
widman, I'm sorry but I must strongly disagree with your statement about more protection that Schaeffers.

Delo does not have more antiwear protection than schaeffers. Delo does have more z/p but we also carry the Mo blended with the penetro that in conjuction of the limited amount of zddp used in the oil, This actually provides better antiwear protection than just the zddp.

This is one reason why Schaeffers among a few others that use the Mo, have shown better protection in normal engines against some of the leading contenders.

Now I know this isn't actual scientific proof but I have proven to myself and many others I might add, that there is a difference in wear protection between these two.
NOTICE THE WEAR SCAR ON EACH BEARING, THESE OILS WERE TAKEN ALL THE WAY UNTIL EACH ONE PLATED UP WITH THE EXCEPTION OF MOBIL'S SUPERSYN WHICH NEVER DID. .

 -

For those of you who want to see how I got these results, i have small video clips (ie browsers only) that show how these results were achived.

http://bobistheoilguy.com/videos.html

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#1855 - 06/27/02 08:29 PM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14636
Loc: Midwest
"NOTICE THE WEAR SCAR ON EACH BEARING, THESE OILS WERE TAKEN ALL THE WAY UNTIL EACH ONE PLATED UP WITH THE EXCEPTION OF MOBIL'S SUPERSYN WHICH NEVER DID."

Since I couldn't get the video to come up, what do you mean by, "THESE OILS WERE TAKEN ALL THE WAY UNTIL EACH ONE PLATED UP."

Do you mean to say the oil bath temp was raised until the MoTDC/ZDDP package activated?

Could you give us some indications of the oil temps, the mechanical pressures (forces) applied, etc.?

Thanks

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#1856 - 06/28/02 12:14 AM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 1874
Loc: Ocala, Florida
Mola, Do you mean to say the oil bath temp was raised until the MoTDC/ZDDP package activated?
... Yes, I kept using an up and down stroke on my machine, applying pressure on and off the bearing basicly like a rod bearing would against a crank, until the oils additive package activated the barrier lube by plating up and no metal to metal contact is present when the film was sheared. Once this condition exists, you'll know as it now quites down the bearing.

Again, I know there is no scientific value in this. It does prove to me there is a difference. I have invited many to try this themselves. Several people have come over and they themselves have walked away with a new perspective on barrier lubes.

It's really hard to impress on someone by discussion over the inet I really have made as many efforts to show all aspects of what I'm doing with the use of the videos.

it'd be best to watch the videos as that would answer a lot of your questions as to the level of non scientific degree this is.

to the right of your start button on the bottom of you screen is a little blue "e" . All computers with windows has this. anyway, click on that,(opens the internet explorer browser, paste in the web address for my video pages and if you have a recent version of IE, it should play. of course provided you have speakers.

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#1857 - 06/28/02 12:48 AM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14636
Loc: Midwest
I'll try that, maybe a cookie or something was missing.

What I was trying to determine from the above picture of the seven bearings was:

The bearings (I assume them to be roller bearings from some bearing assembly) appear to be ground by a grinding wheel. What caused the scars and under what oil temps and mechanical pressures did these scars occur?

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#1858 - 06/28/02 07:10 AM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
GW Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 58
Loc: Needs completed
quote:
Mola, Do you mean to say the oil bath temp was raised until the MoTDC/ZDDP package activated?
... Yes, I kept using an up and down stroke on my machine, applying pressure on and off the bearing basicly like a rod bearing would against a crank, until the oils additive package activated the barrier lube by plating up and no metal to metal contact is present when the film was sheared. Once this condition exists, you'll know as it now quites down the bearing.

You say yes Bob, but your oil bath is NOT heated right?

I also wonder about how you are comparing this to a rod bearing on a crank, as with your test we are likely talking about many more P.S.I. at the contact point than on a rod bearing which has a much greater contact area.

Please don't get me wrong, I think Schaeffer is probably a very good product and I will even give it a try one day but, I think your bearing test is a bit of a trick as it (in my opinion) could lead people to believe that Schaeffer would almost totally eliminate wear in an engine - we know that it does not.

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#1859 - 06/28/02 04:56 PM Re: delo 400 in gas engine
Bror Jace Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 4878
Loc: Saratoga, NY
JonS, according to Johnny who works for them and knows which plant the base oils come out of, Pennzoil is currently using a Group II+ base, better than most others in the "sludging" department as they run Group II. The rumors about Quaker State and Pennzoil allowing a waxy-sludge to build up inside a motor are decades old. No SJ or SL base oil could have the amount of wax in them to create a problem.

As for the Timken testing, I think Bob has a great deal of info about this on his home page ... including videos of what he is doing. He also goes to great lengths to explain the limitations of that sort of testing.

For the record, I don't think it has "no scientific value" it's just that this is not a purely scientific way of testing. There are too many minor variables involved.

The results, however, are quite interesting. [Smile]

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