I'm confused. I have read that for the same car/engine , recommended OCI's are longer in Europe(or elsewhere) than North America. Is this true? If so is there a basis for these difference? How does this affect warranty coverage if there are double standards?
North American vs. European OCI
- Thread starter harthamm
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Yes, the basis is the greater cost and higher oil standards there. If oil cost $20/qt. you wouldn't be changing it out every 3k either.
Likewise, nobody uses 5-20 or 5-30 in the rest of the world which are fuel economy grades and require more frequent changing (hence the N.Amer. 3k/3mo. OCI's)....
Likewise, nobody uses 5-20 or 5-30 in the rest of the world which are fuel economy grades and require more frequent changing (hence the N.Amer. 3k/3mo. OCI's)....
And that is why just about every BMW or any other car in Europe throws out a "James Bond like" smoke screen going down the road becaus of how poorly maintained their cars are.
Americans love their cars much more than in any other country, and American cars are more maticulously maintained as a result. More frequent oil changes means you can can keep an eye on what is going on with your vehicle.
Americans love their cars much more than in any other country, and American cars are more maticulously maintained as a result. More frequent oil changes means you can can keep an eye on what is going on with your vehicle.
I think that the biggest difffernce is the style of driving europeans for the most part dont do the excessive stop and go and very frequent short trips.
grbr95:
I lived in Europe for 10 years on and off between 1970 and 1991, and I've been back there since. I don't recall seeing the smoke clouds you describe except in Italy. In the rest of Western Europe the authorities conduct rigorous annual technical inspections to assure cars meet high standards--and don't smoke. In some countries a smoking car will be pulled over by the cops and cited.
Italy is a special case--at least Naples, where I was stationed. There's not much routine or preventive maintenance done that I can see. People drive their cars till they quit and then have them towed and repaired. Any corner gas station is ready and able to deal with the results of, for example, the timing belt breaking on your Fiat 128.
I also can't speak for central (formely commie) Europe. Never been there, but I doubt there are many old Skodas and Trabants still on the roads.
As for Americans taking better care of their cars--we've got our Italy-equivalents. I've seen beaters in every state in the Union.
Cheers, Mark
I lived in Europe for 10 years on and off between 1970 and 1991, and I've been back there since. I don't recall seeing the smoke clouds you describe except in Italy. In the rest of Western Europe the authorities conduct rigorous annual technical inspections to assure cars meet high standards--and don't smoke. In some countries a smoking car will be pulled over by the cops and cited.
Italy is a special case--at least Naples, where I was stationed. There's not much routine or preventive maintenance done that I can see. People drive their cars till they quit and then have them towed and repaired. Any corner gas station is ready and able to deal with the results of, for example, the timing belt breaking on your Fiat 128.
I also can't speak for central (formely commie) Europe. Never been there, but I doubt there are many old Skodas and Trabants still on the roads.
As for Americans taking better care of their cars--we've got our Italy-equivalents. I've seen beaters in every state in the Union.
Cheers, Mark
I guess the smoke screen I missed. But as a MB or BMW rolled by at 220 or 230 KPH the smoke must be minimal. I do miss the left turn signal & a flash of the lights in the rear view as a low flying missle smoked by.
Long OCI with real synthetic Group IV on up base oils have been encouraged for many years in Western Europe.
In general most motor oils in Europe are PAOs, expensive and are heavier weight than our 5w 30s and 5w 20s ect.
In Europe Group III and below base oils are not considered a real synthetic like they are under API. Interesting enough Japans JASO also does not consider Group III and below base oils synthetic.
Only under the early 90s relaxed standards of the API do we accept Group III base oils as synthetics in North America.
grbr95,
I would really like to know where you came up with this...I, too, have lived in Europe for extended periods, Italy included, and cannot vouch for your assertion. In addition, I hope we Americans maintain our cars more "maticulously" [sic] than we spell.
grbr95,
I would really like to know where you came up with this...I, too, have lived in Europe for extended periods, Italy included, and cannot vouch for your assertion. In addition, I hope we Americans maintain our cars more "maticulously" [sic] than we spell.
Shell Helix Ultra, Shell Rotella T synthetic, and Shell's Formula 1 oil for Ferrari's race team are all made from Shell's HXVI group III base stock formula with varying additives of course. I am sure Helix Ultra has just enough PAO in it so it can pass as a synthetic in Europe but, it is primarily group III.
As far as Europeans and the way they maintain their vehicles is concerned. I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Europeans take much better care of not just their cars but, everything in general. Except in Italy. So much vandalism everywhere out their.
As far as Europeans and the way they maintain their vehicles is concerned. I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Europeans take much better care of not just their cars but, everything in general. Except in Italy. So much vandalism everywhere out their.
Much as I love Italy, "security issues" (theft) do seem to be a problem, but I still say that having driven A LOT around Italy including Naples, I have not seen the smoke screens grbr95 described. In Germany, I remember a car could not pass the TÜV (inspection) if the engine was dirty and, in fact, Germans would sometimes sell cars that could not pass the TÜV to American military because under the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) did not have to submit them for this inpspection. I will bet you some of these cars were in better shape than the cars Americans brought over.
In Britain, at least, and probably elsewhere in Europe, cars are taxed depending on how big the engine is and how much pollution is generated, among other things. That's why you see more cars with small turbocharged engines instead of V6s with the same power. With such concern for reducing pollution, I doubt they'd be laxed about smoking tailpipes.
However, in big cities in Italy where there are lots and lots of scooters, the amount of pollution is fairly high, regardless of the pollution from the cars.
I was in Rome a few years ago and the amount of gunk in my nose at the end of the day was gross.
However, in big cities in Italy where there are lots and lots of scooters, the amount of pollution is fairly high, regardless of the pollution from the cars.
I was in Rome a few years ago and the amount of gunk in my nose at the end of the day was gross.
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Take care, Bill
The reason is better oil. Many European engine makers have specifications for oil just for their engines. They don't use much "generic" oil like API-SM. The oil is usually synthetic, and usually good for 10,000 miles between oil changes, sometimes up to 18,000 miles. The European consumers would never consider wasting their time getting oil changes every 3000 miles, nor dumping that much oil to be recycled. They want once yearly engine maintenance, including a yearly oil change. They are using lighter viscosity oils, 5W-30 in cars and 10W-30 in diesels, in their push for lower fuel consumption. If I can make a very broad generalization, Europeans want more value for their money, and want assets for the very long haul. Americans want for quantity for their money and rarely care about quality above the minimum. They want new assets frequently. (I know, many, many exceptions.)
Ken
Ken
I wonder if it has to do more with the companies wanting to support their dealership service departments rather than a true quality issue. It doesn't appear our oils are that bad in terms of increasing OCI's. I wonder what are per capita density of dealership service departments are relative to these other countries. Can they survive only by artificially increasing their business?
Here in America the government (EPA) decides what specs the oil will meet (witness the new SM category). In Europe, the car manufacturers (ACEA) have much more input as far as oil specs go. The EPA's attitude is "this is what we want, you'll have to figure out what to do to make it work" versus "as automobile manufacturers, we need the following oil specs etc.,etc.)in Europe. Final analysis: Car manufacturers know what's best for cars vs a government agency.
I think you will find longer warranties in North America and we do tend to drive more miles (or kilometers) per year. MB and BMW now require synthetics and have long OCI's, the same as in Europe, but they solve the warranty requirement problem by providing dealer service for free here.
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