Alternatives for Castrol 10w60 TWS for M3

[jmillet]

Read this http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx
and then decide if you really want to use something other than TWS 10W-60 in your high strung S54 engine.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
z1le - Whilst some "alternatives" may be available as some on here have alluded to, the BMW service documents relating to specific engine families are very very clear. They endorse their 10W-60 recommendation - over and over again!

Castrol's 10W-60 (BMW's versions and Formula RS) is a formidable lubricant with a long history. I was involved in its development from the late 1970s when it was a 15W-50 castor based lubricant

Recently whilst at the Nurburgring I found that it was the most commonly used lubricant amongst those present and racing - in a wide variety of engines!

Castrol's 10W-60 is a lubricant I have used for over nearly 30 years - in engine families (petrol/diesel) to numerous to mention - and always with first class results. It is one of the best lubricants ever made and at any price - and with a racing history (Jaguar, Benz, Porsche, BMW, V8Supercars and etc )to back it up

 

[mechanicx]

I just have a question though. 10W60 seems like a ridiculusly wide viscosity spread on top of being a heavy oil that will drag down HP. Wouldn't this require more VII and be liable to sheer down to a 50wt or lower? Seems like a 20W50, 15W50 or even 15W40 (I know this is much lighter than a 60 wt, but possibly less VII and shearing) would make more sense. That along with tighting up the bearing clearance just a tad (more max load ability that way)and cranking up the oil pressure/volume a tad, along with cooling the oil more (increasing the oil capacity/oil oolers).

The trend in racing even formula ! is to use light oils so it definitely can be workable.

 

[d00df00d]

They don't use that viscosity for its ability to handle load.

They use it because an M3 on a hot day can drive sump temps up to 150 degrees C, and they need something that will not turn to water at that temp.

At the same time, cold flow is still important. Hence the 10w instead of 15w or 20w.

 

[mechanicx]

Yeah but if it's about heat turning the oil to too low of a visocity than it is about viscosity. why not bigger sump size and oil coolers to keep sump temperatures down? I wasn't refering to the M# specifically but to Doug Hilliary saying that 10W60 was used in racing there for years.

 

[jaj]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Yeah but if it's about heat turning the oil to too low of a visocity than it is about viscosity. why not bigger sump size and oil coolers to keep sump temperatures down? I wasn't refering to the M# specifically but to Doug Hilliary saying that 10W60 was used in racing there for years.


Check out this link: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1672276#Post1672276

This "M" car has everything you suggest: the engine oil cooler is the full width of the lower "mouth" on the bumper. The engine holds 10 liters of oil - 9 in the double sump and one in the cooler. The oil spec is 10w-60 TWS. It holds at about 240 degrees F for hour after hour on the track. At that temperature, it's about the same viscosity as an Xw-30 at "normal" operating temps.

TWS is the oil that BMW Motorsport puts in their unlimited racing engines (well, except for the Formula One engines). It's good stuff.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: jaj
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Yeah but if it's about heat turning the oil to too low of a visocity than it is about viscosity. why not bigger sump size and oil coolers to keep sump temperatures down? I wasn't refering to the M# specifically but to Doug Hilliary saying that 10W60 was used in racing there for years.


Check out this link: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1672276#Post1672276

This "M" car has everything you suggest: the engine oil cooler is the full width of the lower "mouth" on the bumper. The engine holds 10 liters of oil - 9 in the double sump and one in the cooler. The oil spec is 10w-60 TWS. It holds at about 240 degrees F for hour after hour on the track. At that temperature, it's about the same viscosity as an Xw-30 at "normal" operating temps.

TWS is the oil that BMW Motorsport puts in their unlimited racing engines (well, except for the Formula One engines). It's good stuff.





OK that's interesting, thanks. I guess a 60 wt oil makes since for endurance racing or 24 hrs at Sebring or something. The thing is with 240F oil temperatures it doesn't seem like anything heavier than a 40 or 50W would be necessary, but I guess endurance is the focus more than every last extra HP. I guess also it comes from the concept of drive on the hot track all day with the same oil you drive around town with. I guess I was really asking about the use of such a wide viscosity spread and thick oil in general in europe, not so much BMWs specifically, but I guess it's two different design philoshies. I see that BMW seems to be jumping more on the V8 design long favored in America.

 

[d00df00d]

BMW has had V8s for years, mostly in their bigger cars. It was only rare in M cars.

The M5 was V8 powered from 1998-2003. That car switched to a V10 in 2006, largely because it would have been hard or impossible to get more power out of a V8 while continuing to meet tightening emissions standards and at the same time maintaining the sharp, smooth, and accurate throttle response that is so vital to an M car.

The new M3 switched to a V8 for similar reasons.

 

[e36'n]

TWS 10w60 is a wonderful oil; we're becoming apparent of that. The question remains though, what are alternatives to it for a e46 m3 with the s54 engine?

Motul 300v 5w40 works so far, according to some UOA's. Castrol Syntec 5w50 also seems to work based on the PTG race car, but who knows their OCI's. What other 5w40, 5w50, 10w50 oil's could we trust in our car?

 

[d00df00d]

You have to put some qualifications on your question.

First, what do you expect to gain? In what way is TWS inadequate for you?

Second, how do you drive, and what kind of OCIs will you run?

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: e36'n
The question remains though, what are alternatives to it for a e46 m3 with the s54 engine?

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=130&pcid=21

Article on BMWs: http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13

 

[d00df00d]

...if you're willing to take Red Line's word for it.

 

[e36'n]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
You have to put some qualifications on your question.

First, what do you expect to gain? In what way is TWS inadequate for you?


Better oil circulation during -30C start-ups, slightly better gas mileage and not having to buy the oil from the dealer for the great discounted price of $18/L.

TWS is far from inadequate, but in the winter when I'm rarely reaching the 8000rpm redline (and if I do it would be for half a second during a shift to second or third), why do I need a boutique 10w60 on a car with 132k kms?

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Second, how do you drive, and what kind of OCIs will you run?


Spirited. I rev it to 8000rpms a couple times a day, after it's fully warmed up of course. I'll be doing it less with my winter tires on though. OCI's would be 7000-10000kms.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: e36'n
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
You have to put some qualifications on your question.

First, what do you expect to gain? In what way is TWS inadequate for you?


Better oil circulation during -30C start-ups, slightly better gas mileage and not having to buy the oil from the dealer for the great discounted price of $18/L.

TWS is far from inadequate, but in the winter when I'm rarely reaching the 8000rpm redline (and if I do it would be for half a second during a shift to second or third), why do I need a boutique 10w60 on a car with 132k kms?

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Second, how do you drive, and what kind of OCIs will you run?


Spirited. I rev it to 8000rpms a couple times a day, after it's fully warmed up of course. I'll be doing it less with my winter tires on though. OCI's would be 7000-10000kms.


If you are looking for a lighter weight oil that is also BMW LL-01 approved Mobil 1 0w-40 is one choice. I assume it's readily available and inexpensive in you locale. Didn't someone mention it before in this thread?

Mobil 1 0w-40

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: e36'n
Better oil circulation during -30C start-ups, slightly better gas mileage and not having to buy the oil from the dealer for the great discounted price of $18/L

....

Spirited. I rev it to 8000rpms a couple times a day, after it's fully warmed up of course. I'll be doing it less with my winter tires on though. OCI's would be 7000-10000kms.

So, in other words, you want it to be cheaper than TWS and better in the extreme cold, but you don't want to have to drive like a granny. That narrows it down quite a bit.

If you want it to be cheaper, that cuts out the usual no. 1 suspect, Motul 300V. Just as well, since no 300V has a pour point below -36C, and -- here's something I had forgotten -- TWS has a pour point of -51C:

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_int...ort_06_08_d.pdf

We also have to cut out Motul's other oils, as well as anything else from overseas.

Everything cheaper than TWS that also flows better in extreme cold is also a LOT lighter when hot.

Red Line and Mobil 1 have 0w-40s that look tempting. If I had a gun to my head and had to pick one of those two, I'd pick Mobil 1; it carries pretty much every OEM certification in the book, is used by factory race teams, and is significantly cheaper than TWS. Mobil also used to recommend it for M engines. However, it's worth noting that they have since withdrawn that recommendation (albeit for reasons unknonwn).

Anything thicker from Red Line has a higher pour point. Mobil 1 15w-50 wouldn't give enough of a benefit in cold weather to be worth the gamble. Anything remotely suitable from Amsoil would either be an outdated street formulation or a racing oil that wouldn't last long between changes. I'm having a hard time thinking of any more examples but the trend seems clear.

-51C is a REALLY low pour point for a 10w-60. There is something special about that oil.

It also must be stressed that TWS is to some extent matched specifically to the metallurgy of your engine, whereas no other oil is.

See what I mean?

Take the gamble if you must, but I can't say I would.

 

[330indy]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d

-51C is a REALLY low pour point for a 10w-60. There is something special about that oil.

It also must be stressed that TWS is to some extent matched specifically to the metallurgy of your engine, whereas no other oil is.

See what I mean?

Take the gamble if you must, but I can't say I would.

+ 1

 

[e36'n]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d

So, in other words, you want it to be cheaper than TWS and better in the extreme cold, but you don't want to have to drive like a granny. That narrows it down quite a bit.

If you want it to be cheaper, that cuts out the usual no. 1 suspect, Motul 300V. Just as well, since no 300V has a pour point below -36C, and -- here's something I had forgotten -- TWS has a pour point of -51C:

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_int...ort_06_08_d.pdf

We also have to cut out Motul's other oils, as well as anything else from overseas.

Everything cheaper than TWS that also flows better in extreme cold is also a LOT lighter when hot.

Red Line and Mobil 1 have 0w-40s that look tempting. If I had a gun to my head and had to pick one of those two, I'd pick Mobil 1; it carries pretty much every OEM certification in the book, is used by factory race teams, and is significantly cheaper than TWS. Mobil also used to recommend it for M engines. However, it's worth noting that they have since withdrawn that recommendation (albeit for reasons unknonwn).

Anything thicker from Red Line has a higher pour point. Mobil 1 15w-50 wouldn't give enough of a benefit in cold weather to be worth the gamble. Anything remotely suitable from Amsoil would either be an outdated street formulation or a racing oil that wouldn't last long between changes. I'm having a hard time thinking of any more examples but the trend seems clear.

-51C is a REALLY low pour point for a 10w-60. There is something special about that oil.

It also must be stressed that TWS is to some extent matched specifically to the metallurgy of your engine, whereas no other oil is.

See what I mean?

Take the gamble if you must, but I can't say I would.


Good points.

I'm going to do a VOA of the new Rotella T 5w40 and see what it shows. Terry raved out this oil last year and on paper it seems great. I haven't revved my engine past ~4500rpms in the last two weeks as it's been between -20C and -35C. With shorter OCI's of say 5-7k kms, I'm thinking any good synthetic would hold up if the revs aren't going past 5k.

This weekends forecast has a low of -37C (-35F) plus windchill so I won't be doing much...

 

[Trajan]

I would just stick with the TWS and call it a day.

 

[vxcalais]

A good altnernative would be Shell Helix Ultra 10w60, Shells performance PAO oil.