Using VW/MB/BMW specs to find the right oil

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07Wolfie

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Mount Vernon, WA, US
I've only recently been sucked into the BITOG vortex, so this is my first post. I'm ashamed to tell my friends how I've been spending my free time- they just wouldn't understand what could be so riveting about PCMO...buffoons. There's an astonishing amount of knowledge floating around here, and I've learned a tremendous amount. I'd like to tap that knowledge now and see if I'm on the right track with my oil choices:


My engine is a 2007 Volkswagen 2.5l 5-cyl (this is the naturally-aspirated base engine for the North American market) with 18K miles on it. I'd like to pick the best oil available primarily for wear protection and engine longevity, with secondary and tertiary concerns being fuel economy and long drain interval. Before I go further, let me get some stuff out of the way:

*Warranty => 502.00-approved only
*I know "any" 502 oil will be "fine", I'm looking for the best available
*I've discovered Blackstone and ordered 4 dozen kits, 6 pumps, and a hat. I'll be sampling often.

From my BITOG research, it seems like a good combination of MFG specs to look for on an oil bottle for my engine would be VW 502, MB 229.5, and BMW LL-01. This would be preferable to MB 129.51, BMW LL-04, and VW 507 (low SAPS), since I have no particulate filter to worry about, right? Finally, are the formulaic changes required to create a longlife oil (VW 504) in any way a compromise in terms of wear protection/additive strength?

Assuming VW 502, MB 229.5, and BMW LL-01 are my personal trifecta, what are some specific oils which meet all 3? I know there's good ol' M1 0W-40 at Wallyworld, but what else do the experts recommend?

TIA for your help!
 
Lots of good choices but looking at where you live you might want to look a availability !
First take a look on this web site in the information database where you'll find a list of VW502.0 oils .
Take a look in the discount car parts places like Pep Boys , Autozone , Advance Auto etc and see what they carry !
Mobil 1 , Castrol , Pennzoil all have oils that meet the specs ! I would avoid the boutique oils that are more advertising than performance .
 
I couldn't agree more with Bruno, there are quite a few oils sold in North America which meets European Automobiles engine oil specifications.

But one has to also consider how much money and time it will consume to find a product, and whether it will be worth it in the end...

Castrol Syntec 0W-30
Mobil 1 0W-40

are far more easier to find than most products....

I know you are not concerned about Particulate Filtration, Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 is also a very good choice..

I have been told that most Dodge, Jeep & Chrysler dealerships keep them in stock including some->(very rare) Mercedes, BMW & VW/Audi dealerships as well

In my BMW I am currently running this oil, just for added winter protection I used 1L of Red Line 0W-30 along with 5.5L of ESP 5W-30 (I do not recommend this to anyone, just sharing what I have done and I am very happy with it)
 
Here's a short list of oils that are 502/229.5/LL-01 approved -
Castrol Edge 0W-30
Castrol Syntec 0W-30
Elf Excellium Full-Tech 0W-30 (aka Total Quartz Energy 9000)
Mobil Mobil 1 0W-40
Motul 8100 X-Max 5W-30
Shell Helix Ultra 0W-40
Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30
Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40

Also, FWIW, I think your analysis of options is spot on.
Shell Helix Ultra AB 5W-30
Shell Pennzoil Platinum European Formulation Ultra 5W-30
Shell Q Horsepower 5W-40
Shell Quaker State Full Synthetic European Formula Ultra 5W-30
 
I do not understand why you would want to disregard the new specs?

Now it might be bull (doubt it) but the link I posted (thanks to another poster) shows VW 504 oil equal or superior (mostly superior) to 502 in all aspects. Same with BMW LL-04 vs 01 and MB specs.

Hope it goes on sale LOL

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 meets or exceeds the requirements of the following industry specifications:
ACEA C2, C3
ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4
API SM/SL
API CF
Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 has the following builder approvals:
BMW Longlife 04
Mercedes-Benz MB-Approval 229.31 and 229.51
Volkswagen (Gasoline/Diesel) 504 00 / 507 00
Porsche C30
PSA B712290
PSA D - Level 3
PSA E - Level 3
AvtoVAZ Group “Luxe”
Chrysler MS-11106
AAE Standard STO-003-05, Group B6
Also recommended for use in applications requiring:
JASO DL 1-08
Volkswagen (Gasoline) 502 00 / 503 00 / 503 01
Volkswagen* (Diesel) 505 01/ 505 00 / 506 00 / 506 01
 
Well, for one thing, the LL-04 oils have lower sulfated ash levels and a lower TBN than the LL-01 oils. Presumably the same holds true for the MB and VW specs. Depending upon the details of your usage and OCI, that may not matter much, but if you don't need a low-SAPS oil, why bother?

FWIW - more extended discussion of the BMW oils can be found here -http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1061057&page=1
 
Why bother? Why not? If the charts are true, then again LL-04 is at least the equal of LL-01 on the important measures and bests LL-01 in other performance parameters including increased mpg.

As far as extended drains, the OP's vehicle only has 18,000 miles and I assume is still under warranty. 5,000 miles OCI recommended. Max 10,000 which you know the M1 ESP will handle no problem.

Great wear protection, runs cleaner, lower oxidation for extended drains, increased MPG. No brainer...unless one does not believe Lubrizol
 
LL-04 might not be the best oil for North America, especially for long oil change intervals - have a look at this discussion and post from Jag:

Originally Posted By: JAG

The starting TBNs of LL-04 oils are generally lower than for LL-01 oils. Sulfur in gasoline is a big cause of TBN depletion. Low TBN with ethanol laden gasoline further increases the chance of engine corrosion. I think that BMW does not think LL-04 oils in general can hold up in all states in the U.S. for their recommended OCIs/time intervals at a high enough frequency. MB has recently changed back to a higher TBN oil specification (229.5) in the U.S. and their reason was they found unsatisfactory engine protection with MB 229.51 spec oils here and said it was due to the ethanol in gasoline.


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1486305&page=1
 
IIRC, at one point, LL-04 wasn't meant for sale outside of Europe. I think it was related to the sulphur quantity in US gas, but that may of changed.

LL-01 would be fine for the OP's VW.

Ahhh, mva covered better.
 
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Great info, thanks to all. I had read the thread about MB and BMW waffling on their longlife spec being valid in the US due to TBN/sulfur/ethanol concerns, and that's why I wasn't sure LL oils were my best choice. The car's on it's way to California right now, and I'm going to be driving all over the western US and will likely encounter some shoddy gas.

I only disagree on one point: Easily-obtained lubricants are no challenge at all. The difficult-to-find, unique, rare, "white whale" oils are the best. How many posts on here are titled something like this: "GC on shelves in Wannapanoak, Minnesota!"
wink.gif
 
okay fair enough, I have heard that before that LL-04 oils have a lower TBN and when used with a gasoline which has a higher ethanol content it compromises engline oils life...but then I was told that the higher end premium oils do not have as much ethanol as lower octane does..

for example Sunoco Ultra94, Shell 93, Esso/Exxon 91, PetroCanada 91 may not have has much ethanol as an octane 87 might and also these gasoline have a higher quality additive package...since no gasoline producer would want high octane vehicle owner...wonder what BITOG members have to say regarding this
 
Originally Posted By: Ibrahim
okay fair enough, I have heard that before that LL-04 oils have a lower TBN and when used with a gasoline which has a higher ethanol content it compromises engline oils life...but then I was told that the higher end premium gas do not have as much ethanol as lower octane does..

for example Sunoco Ultra94, Shell 93, Esso/Exxon 91, PetroCanada 91 may not have has much ethanol as an octane 87 might and also these gasoline have a higher quality additive package...since no gasoline producer would want high octane vehicle owner...wonder what BITOG members have to say regarding this

Well, it brings me back to the question of "why bother?" Why accept a lower TBN to use an oil optimized for an engine you don't have only to have to now worry about the specific chemical make-up of your gas?
 
OK guys you win. It seems gasoline may be a problem here in the US. I have a email into Mobil 1 tech asking them about it. Hopefully I will get a response. Thanks to all for the great info... especially jpr
 
Originally Posted By: tenderloin
OK guys you win. It seems gasoline may be a problem here in the US. I have a email into Mobil 1 tech asking them about it. Hopefully I will get a response. Thanks to all for the great info... especially jpr
You're certainly welcome, but you do have a valid point as well - shorter OCI is the antidote to a lower starting TBN. If your habits and preferences are to change your oil more frequently (for example 6 months / 7500 miles vice 12 months / 15000 miles in the BMW case) then the higher starting TBN of the LL-01 doesn't really come into play. In that case perhaps there is some other property of a particular LL-04 that you may find desirable that makes it worth accepting the shorter OCI.

Personally though, I'd want the LL-04 to be either half the cost, twice as good, or some combination in between in order to justify changing the oil twice as often.

EDIT - An alternative scenario where the TBN wouldn't come into play would be if you've got pretty good handle on your typical rate of TBN depletion and know it's rather mild. In that case, you might judge that a LL-04 type oil would last until your habitual OCI following up with oil analysis to verify that it does. Again, my personal preference would be to simply stick with an LL-01 type and put less things on the my worry board.
 
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Just received this email from Mobil. Guess I am taking back my ESP LOL

"The Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 motor oil is a product designed specifically for some Mercedes, Chrysler, and VW vehicles, it should not be utilized in other vehicles as it does not meet API gasoline requirements".

Thank you for choosing ExxonMobil products.
If you need further assistance, please contact ExxonMobil at 1-800-ASK-MOBIL
 
How odd - when you pull up the actual data sheet it states "meets engine test requirements" in regards to the API Sl/SM standard rather than simply "meets requirements."

That's certainly not the impression given by the webpage text...
 
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