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#1660563 - 11/06/09 09:41 AM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: ARCOgraphite]
Johnny Online   content


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 12227
Loc: Retired | Wausau, WI
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Is he using Mobil 1 10W-40 motorcycle oil in his 944 track car? If so, wrong product for application.
Could you expound why a bike oil would be bad for track? - other than lower friction modifier %? I've used them with good results - but would agree a RL would appear to be preferable for hot turbo use/track use.


Just my opinion/theory. I'm a spec kind of guy. You know, motor cycle oils in motorcycles, truck/diesel oils in diesel trucks, racing oil in race cars, etc.
_________________________
2005 Honda Element | 103K | PU 5W-20 | Pennzoil MV ATF
2006 Honda Element | 38K | RLI 0W-20 | RLI ATF | Testing
Retired | Pennzoil Products Company

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#1660569 - 11/06/09 09:43 AM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: ARCOgraphite]
sunfire Offline


Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 971
Loc: Ca, US
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Is he using Mobil 1 10W-40 motorcycle oil in his 944 track car? If so, wrong product for application.
Could you expound why a bike oil would be bad for track? - other than lower friction modifier %? I've used them with good results - but would agree a RL would appear to be preferable for hot turbo use/track use.


This site says Amsoil motorcycle oils don't have any friction modifiers. Motorcycle oils are designed to work with wet clutches so they are not ideal for car engines



Edited by wwillson (11/06/09 10:01 AM)
Edit Reason: non-sponsor link

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#1660576 - 11/06/09 09:47 AM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: Johnny]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3848
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
Make sense, the oil formulators know best and did the rigorous track testing. Zoom-Zoom was this M1 R 4T syn charcoal cap oil in the failed turbo car? Dont recall 4t having a lot of moly FM's. Were other additives tossed in the sump?


Edited by ARCOgraphite (11/06/09 09:48 AM)
_________________________
2008 Yaris 5MT 3Door - M1 High Mileage 10W30 SL, A3 B3/B4 + WIX 51396
2009 Forester 5MT 5Door - Pennzoil High Mileage 5W30 SM/GF5 + OEM Honeywell

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#1660593 - 11/06/09 09:54 AM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: ARCOgraphite]
zoomzoom Offline


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 763
Loc: Washington, DC
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Make sense, the oil formulators know best and did the rigorous track testing. Zoom-Zoom was this M1 R 4T syn charcoal cap oil in the failed turbo car? Dont recall 4t having a lot of moly FM's. Were other additives tossed in the sump?


guys oil in car is not an motorcycle oil, probably mix of 15w-50 M1 and 10w-40 M1..he would not put motorcycle oil in the car..
_________________________
2001 Audi S4 Redline 5w-30/10w-40

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#1660594 - 11/06/09 09:54 AM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: zoomzoom]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3848
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: zoomzoom


Turbo is already replaced and he is going to VIR next weekend.

here is another 944 UOA:



Al 4
Chro 3
Fe 8
Cu 3
Pb 22
Tin 3
Moly 96
Ni 0
Mg 1
Si 0
Ti 0
K 5
Bo 7
Sil 10
Na 70
Ca 1886
Mag 787
Phos 1643
Zn 2055
Bar 0

SUS 70.9
CSt 13.18
Flash 385
Fuel .5
AntiFreeze ?
Water 0
Insol .3


Other than the Pb level, thats better than most street car UOA. Highly EP additised stuff. And ELF magic. (Not to be confused with GC Elfen magic ...)
_________________________
2008 Yaris 5MT 3Door - M1 High Mileage 10W30 SL, A3 B3/B4 + WIX 51396
2009 Forester 5MT 5Door - Pennzoil High Mileage 5W30 SM/GF5 + OEM Honeywell

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#1660604 - 11/06/09 09:59 AM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: ARCOgraphite]
zoomzoom Offline


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 763
Loc: Washington, DC
I wonder what Doug Hillary has to say about this one.
_________________________
2001 Audi S4 Redline 5w-30/10w-40

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#1660780 - 11/06/09 12:14 PM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: zoomzoom]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39244
Loc: Pottstown, PA
Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
guys, please focus :-)

what oil was is in there is not as important as what is causing his rings to wear at this rate, what should he have a look at to determine the cause?


Disintegrating turbo material playing havoc down stream?

Install intermediate inline filtration.
_________________________
http://lube-direct.com/gallan/

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#1660797 - 11/06/09 12:28 PM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: Gary Allan]
zoomzoom Offline


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 763
Loc: Washington, DC
turbo oil return line goes back into oil pan so it gets filtered before it goes back into engine.
_________________________
2001 Audi S4 Redline 5w-30/10w-40

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#1660807 - 11/06/09 12:32 PM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: zoomzoom]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39244
Loc: Pottstown, PA
No, I didn't make it clear. Turbine wheel goes off kilter. Grinds up tones of fine particles that pass through intercooler (if so equipped) grinds up throttle body, intake, valves, pistons on the way out the exhaust. Much ends up on oil from both ends.
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http://lube-direct.com/gallan/

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#1660814 - 11/06/09 12:38 PM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: Gary Allan]
aquariuscsm Online   content


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 3824
Loc: South Texas,USA
It`s trends like this that made me shy away from synthetic engine oil. There`s twin turbo Z owners on tt.net who`ve spun bearings while tracking their car on synths,and then there`s the ones who`ve regularly tracked their cars and have been running Pennzoil yb since new.......while in the 200-300k mile range,still having factory spec compression in all 6 cylinders and still on original turbos.

Maybe there`s no corelation,but it makes me wonder.
_________________________
1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed(#175 of 300)
Royal Purple 20W50
Amsoil MTG(tranny)
Amsoil 80W90 GL5(rear diff)
Redline Water Wetter

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#1660815 - 11/06/09 12:38 PM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: Gary Allan]
zoomzoom Offline


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 763
Loc: Washington, DC
hot side failed..cool side was fine so no debris as a result
_________________________
2001 Audi S4 Redline 5w-30/10w-40

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#1660834 - 11/06/09 12:51 PM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: sunfire]
Steve S Online   content


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15856
Loc: Ka .li . for, nia
Originally Posted By: sunfire
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Is he using Mobil 1 10W-40 motorcycle oil in his 944 track car? If so, wrong Splain why the oil is not suitable for cars especially race cars.product for application.
Could you expound why a bike oil would be bad for track? - other than lower friction modifier %? I've used them with good results - but would agree a RL would appear to be preferable for hot turbo use/track use.


This site says Amsoil motorcycle oils don't have any friction modifiers. Motorcycle oils are designed to work with wet clutches so they are not ideal for car engines

Splain your opinion.
_________________________
There is no substitute for a REAL manual transmission...cheaper to buy, more durable, and cheaper to maintain and fix after the warranty runs out.

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#1660859 - 11/06/09 01:08 PM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: zoomzoom]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3848
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
turbo oil return line goes back into oil pan so it gets filtered before it goes back into engine.
Hey, there's piston and rods and timing components above the oil pan sump. Stuff get splashed up there and in the oil control rings and scrapers.
_________________________
2008 Yaris 5MT 3Door - M1 High Mileage 10W30 SL, A3 B3/B4 + WIX 51396
2009 Forester 5MT 5Door - Pennzoil High Mileage 5W30 SM/GF5 + OEM Honeywell

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#1661432 - 11/06/09 07:42 PM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: zoomzoom]
JohnBrowning Offline


Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 9448
Loc: USA
First the oil is important as it could be part of the cause....I do not think it is but it could be. Their is a reason why they make race oil's and why big teams have their own oils custom blended for them by companies like Mobil often with a treibologist track side!

I would guess that who ever rebuilt the engine did not do as good of a job as they thought they did! I would also suspect the material issues. Stock pistons do not hold up to race conditions well.

In fact when you build an engine for the track you normally have clearances that are more open then on a street engine. The big differences are the tolerances and the levels of concentricity.A tight engine does not make as much power as a lose engine. On top of that you have bores that are polished to reduce friction no cross hatching for oil control.....

His pistons must sound like a set of jack hammers at RPM with aluminum levels that high! The aluminum and iron and tin and cromium in this case I think are all related to the piston's,rings,wrist pins, and bearing at the big end. If he used silver plated bearing we would have a beter picture of what is from fuel and what is from the lower end in terms of bearing wear.

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#1661751 - 11/07/09 01:24 AM Re: Porsche 944 Turbo, Mobil1 10w-40, Turbo Failure [Re: zoomzoom]
chevrofreak Offline


Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 3945
Loc: Billings, MT
Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Make sense, the oil formulators know best and did the rigorous track testing. Zoom-Zoom was this M1 R 4T syn charcoal cap oil in the failed turbo car? Dont recall 4t having a lot of moly FM's. Were other additives tossed in the sump?


guys oil in car is not an motorcycle oil, probably mix of 15w-50 M1 and 10w-40 M1..he would not put motorcycle oil in the car..


I don't think even a mix of 15W-50 and the 10W-40 would result in these additive levels.
_________________________
I <3 molybdenum disulfide

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