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#1630856 - 10/13/09 11:14 PM Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20
Bruce T Offline


Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 657
Loc: Oklahoma City
Code:
		Honda	Red	RLI
		Genuine	Line	Bio-Syn
		0W20	0W20	0W20
WEAR METALS:				
Iron……………………….	1	2	1	
Copper………………..	0	0	0	
Tin………………….…….	6	8	0	
Lead……………………..	0	0	1	
Chromium…………….	0	0	0	
Nickel………………….	0	0	0	
Aluminum…………..	1	2	0	
Titanium…………….	0	0	0	
Silver………………..	0	0	0	

ADDITIVE METALS:				
Calcium….………….	1545	2213	1893	
Magnesium…….….	8	14	10
Zinc…..……………….	833	1565	1041
Phosphorous…….	831	1219	769
Barium……...………	4	2	0
Molybdenum……….	1065	1290	0
Antimony…………..	0	0	206

CONTAMINANT METALS:			
Silicon…………….…	3	33	1
Sodium……..…………	3	34	10
Boron……….………..	63	19	13
Potassium………….	0	0	0
Vanadium…………..	0	0	0

PHYSICAL AND OTHER:			
Viscosity 40°C	40.4	43.4	43.5
Viscosity 100°C	8.7	8.3	8.4
Viscosity Index	203	171	174
Flash(CCCFP)°F	410	395	410
TAN…………...…………	1.40	2.12	0.61
TBN……..……………..	5.2	6.8	6.3
Oxidation………….	16	158	152
Nitration……………	4	7	6
Water by KF…….	1226	1676	1553
Fuel……..…………..	0.07	0	0
Soot………..………..	0	0	0
Glycol……...…..	0.12	0	0
Sulfate byprod.	22	106	122



VOA is by Dyson Analysis. For premium kits, this is an ISO certified lab in TX. They only accept commercial customers, and they have an exclusive agreement with Terry.

Terry recommended RLI 0W20 for my application, a 2009 Honda Civic Hybrid, without reservation. I had previously used Red Line 5W30 in my hot-running 1997 Camry V6 with a 5-spd manual. The Red Line 0W20 is fairly new to the market. RL and RLI are arguably the top two ester-based oils, hence this comparison. I was also curious about Honda 0W20, a Group III oil which exceeds GF-4/SM requirements (US version, Barcode 08798-9029).

As always, the contaminant and wear metals can be many things: correctly labeled, intentional additives, chemical reactions, false readings, etc. It’s tricky stuff to read. Similarly, additives have generated many arguments in the past. Which ones are good vs. bad for the engine? With the premium kit, Terry will discuss every element on his MP3. This is not meant to be a teaser, just saying that if you want to know, then hire the man.

Flash point is the Continuously Closed Cup Flash Point (CCCFP). This ASTM D6450 standard is newer than the D93 Pensky-Martens Closed Cup (PMCC). Yeah, I had to look this stuff up. Terry said to add 30-50° F to get the open cup (D92 Cleveland Open Cup - COC). There is no exact conversion factor between closed and open cup.

Notice the Red Line TAN is 2.12, but the RLI is lower at 0.61. I searched BITOG for past RLI VOAs, and the lowest was 1.3 for RLI 0W30 by johnbottilaw on 8/26/08. Something new and presumably good is happening here, but I have no idea what it is.

The Karl Fischer titration measures water in parts per million (ppm), so the oils show water readings between 0.1% and 0.2%. All three oils have water dilution? Not likely.

The Honda 0W20 looks impressive for the price, but base oils created from Group V esters still have advantages:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1252272

JoeFromPA mentions that ester-based oils start with a TAN of 2-3, but rise slowly:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1486512&page=all

The issue of TAN in ester-based oils is discussed by saaber1 and Tom NJ here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1583684&page=all

NOTE: I asked Terry about performing two additional tests: HTHS and CCS or MRV. He can source these tests, but his educated guess was at a cost of over $300 apiece. This is too rich for my blood, but they are still available for those with deep pockets. Cool specs to know.

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#1630884 - 10/13/09 11:36 PM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: Bruce T]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11282
Loc: PA
Is it just me or is 203 a REALLY high VI?

CCCFPs look impressive across the board.

What is sodium doing in the Red Line?
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#1630910 - 10/14/09 12:00 AM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: d00df00d]
Steve S Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 18449
Loc: East of IGO
What about the TBN?
_________________________
Why do people post I want the best for my car,,, When there isn't anything that is the best on the car to begin with.

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#1631170 - 10/14/09 08:56 AM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: Steve S]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 12037
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
TBN looks fine for low soot load pass car use. Recall the detergents are competitive with anti wear. Do you want a lot of scuffing or a little leaching at end of life?
_________________________
2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#9 41392mi-QSUD10W30 + M110A CHAMP Filter; 2017 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter

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#1631700 - 10/14/09 04:17 PM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: ARCOgraphite]
elwaylite Offline


Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 488
Loc: Theodore Al
Thanks Bruce!
_________________________
07 Hyundai Sonata 2.4L/75k miles/Redline 0W20/Mobil Filter
09 Scion xB 2.4L/18k miles/Redline 0w20/Mobil Filter

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#1631888 - 10/14/09 07:01 PM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: ARCOgraphite]
Steve S Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 18449
Loc: East of IGO
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
TBN looks fine for low soot load pass car use. Recall the detergents are competitive with anti wear. Do you want a lot of scuffing or a little leaching at end of life?
Seems most of the [long life oils] have much higher TBN.
_________________________
Why do people post I want the best for my car,,, When there isn't anything that is the best on the car to begin with.

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#1632197 - 10/14/09 10:37 PM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: Steve S]
saaber1 Offline


Registered: 11/28/07
Posts: 1877
Loc: Pacnw
Great data Bruce. Good job!!
_________________________
"when 5W30 is cold, ...the oil is 35 weight (5+30),...20 w 50 starts at 70 and warms up to 50"
- Kyle, auto mechanic & VP Speedline Motorsports, INTL

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#1653849 - 11/01/09 12:57 AM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: d00df00d]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 10140
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Is it just me or is 203 a REALLY high VI?

CCCFPs look impressive across the board.

What is sodium doing in the Red Line?


The Honda VI is excellent.
Apparently the oil is formulated by Idemitsu.

Toyota's house brand 0W-20 has an even higher VI of 214 (40C vis 39.3 cSt, 100C vis 8.8 cSt), at least those are the spec's for the Canadian product. It's also the cheapest 0W-20 oil in Canada at $4.50/L in a 12L case.
_________________________
-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50
-'86 Porsche 928S, M1 0W-40
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
-'18 Tesla Model 3 - FF diff' oil

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#1654161 - 11/01/09 11:26 AM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: CATERHAM]
DieselTech Offline


Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 1969
Loc: AZ
You gotta love those RL numbers. It's high dollor but you get what you pay for with it.
_________________________
03 Ford F250 7.3 (Lots of Mods). Redline & baldwin 7039
07 Ford F150 fill. Penz Ultra 5-20 & Bosch 3410
99 ford F150 4.6 fill. Redline 5-30 & P1

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#1689454 - 11/30/09 11:42 AM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: Bruce T]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 10140
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
The factory spec's for the Honda 0W-20 taken from the MSDS are as follows:

40C vis 39.94 cSt
100C vis 8.52 cSt
VI 199
Flash Point 218C
_________________________
-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50
-'86 Porsche 928S, M1 0W-40
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
-'18 Tesla Model 3 - FF diff' oil

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#1689540 - 11/30/09 12:57 PM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: DieselTech]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 30506
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: DieselTech
You gotta love those RL numbers. It's high dollor but you get what you pay for with it.


That's why I'm using it now.
_________________________


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#1693283 - 12/02/09 11:12 PM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: buster]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 10140
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: DieselTech
You gotta love those RL numbers. It's high dollor but you get what you pay for with it.


That's why I'm using it now.


If you're into numbers you've got to love the Honda (Idemitsu) oil.
It's VI is in a higher league than both RL and RLI.
That translates into a start-up vis that's much lighter while having a higher operating vis'; best of both worlds.

I changed out the 20wt RL in my Caterham with less than a 1000 miles on it in favor of Toyota's 0W-20 which has a VI even higher than Honda's and I'm delighted with it's performance.
_________________________
-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50
-'86 Porsche 928S, M1 0W-40
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
-'18 Tesla Model 3 - FF diff' oil

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#1770909 - 02/06/10 11:21 AM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: CATERHAM]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 30506
Loc: NJ
Hopefully they are using good viscosity modifiers. I'm sure both the Honda & Toyota oils are very good. Both are made in Japan.
_________________________


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#1770973 - 02/06/10 12:17 PM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: buster]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 30012
Loc: NY
For about $75/case of 12 qts from both Honda and Toyota the price is in line or less than the boutique offerings in the same grade. On paper the Honda offering looks a little better. The UOA reports should be interesting if/when they start coming in.
_________________________
God Bless Our Troops


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#1771842 - 02/07/10 02:52 AM Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: buster]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 10140
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: buster
Hopefully they are using good viscosity modifiers. I'm sure both the Honda & Toyota oils are very good. Both are made in Japan.


The Honda oil is made at the Idemitsu plant in Jeffersonville Indiana.

The Toyota oil is made at the Nippon Oil Lubricants (America) LLC plant in Childersburg Alabama.
_________________________
-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50
-'86 Porsche 928S, M1 0W-40
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
-'18 Tesla Model 3 - FF diff' oil

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