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#1615355 - 09/29/09 09:45 PM CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil
Diesel24 Offline


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 8
Loc: NJ
Like I stated in another thread, I'm doing a experiment with CJ-4 and CI-4 Diesel Oil. My first sample was Valvoline Premium Blue CJ-4 the TBN started at 10. I just put in John Deere Plus-50 CI-4 to see which oil is better for older Diesel's. Some experts say the CJ-4 is better because of the ULSD we have now. Next up is either Case IH No. 1 CI-4 or Valvoline Premium Blue Classic CI-4+. I pulled the oil early because I bought the truck in June and wanted to know what was going on in the engine. All sample's will use Fleetguard Stratapore filters.






Edited by Diesel24 (09/29/09 09:47 PM)

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#1615382 - 09/29/09 10:04 PM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: Diesel24]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4880
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
Diesel24 - Welcome to BITOG - I hope you enjoy your time here

Such experiments are "interesting" but are unlikely to be in anyways conclusive unless you set very clear guidelines for yourself! Even then..............?

End on end UOAs with different lubricants is really a fairly meaningless and costly excercise

Such guidelines might be to run each lubricant until the end of its useful life. Carry out a "neutral" rinse phase. And then start again with a new lubricant. Even then........?

It has all been done before by the API's Industry "platform" of engine Manufacturers. Extensive field trials over millions of miles backed it up!

A search on here will perhaps save you money as others have been down your pathway before

Blackstone will welcome your revenue
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#1615560 - 09/30/09 05:01 AM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: Doug Hillary]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5696
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
WELCOME!

I Agree with DH.

The small, but significant, chemistry changes between formulations and brands will be enough to skew any seemingly meaningful results when swapping at each OCI.

The only way to truly study this topic is to have long term, long duration OCI cycles where multiple OCIs eliminate the variability of brand chemistry. You would have to use both trending and ranges in statistical analysis. You should have an extraction methodology. You'd need blind test data. And the list goes on and on. (I know; I do statistical process and quality control for a living).

UOAs are fun to look at, and can be informational when viewing a single one, but more so as to assure contaminants have not gotten out of control, and that wear metals have not shot through the roof, indicating a major problem. Looking at a single UOA and making a final determination upon lubricant performance simply cannot be done when trying to compare it to another brand/grade.

If you want to convince yourself of just how this problem can manifest itself by single OCI/UOA combinations, pick one fluid and repeat it every odd-numbered cycle, but do the even-numbered ones with different products. You'll quickly find that there's little correlation in results, because the constant chemistry changes will foul the results. (Ex: Mobil, Castrol, Mobil, Shell, Mobil, Amsoil, Mobil, RL, Mobil, Deere, Mobil, Valvoline, etc.) Even your Mobil results won't match up well.

The only way to see how Mobil would perform would be to do a bare minimum of 30 (thirty) successive UOAs all with Mobil, then move on to the next product. See how expensive and long-term this project can become? Figure on each UOA being at approximately 7.5k miles, multiplied by 30 sets of data, it would take 225k miles JUST TO TEST ONE BRAND/GRADE! (Statistically speaking, 30 (thirty) samples is the commonly accepted minimum, to track trends/ranges and reduce input variables to mathematical insignificance). And let's not forget the fact that there are even variations within a brand/grade; even every batch of Delvac 1300 15w-40 lubricant is not the same as the next. The more samples you view of each candidate, the better "true view" you get. The only way to reduce lubricant batch variation would be to buy all 30 loads at one time from one batch. Unfortnately, you can't use them fast enough before most would start to have the add-pack settle out. And by the time you were ready to start the next brand (after 225k miles) it's highly likely that the industry would be on the next iteration of lube level (CK-4 or whatever). Are you starting to see why the big companies can do this, but you can't? They have the resources (time, funds, manpower, labs, etc), and we, as individuals, don't.

Where UOAs really shine is not so much to give a brand/grade indication of "better than ... ", but to track lubricant health and engine health, during long-term use. UOAs used in the correct manner can show you how long your OCI can be sustained, allowing prediction of degradation before a critical limit is reached. Further, you can track wear metals to see what is "normal" for your individual engine. Just like people, each engine is a little bit different due to small manufacturing variations.

I'll provide a somewhat crass analogy, but it's actually fairly accurate: Hopping from brand to brand at each OCI is no different than dating on a series of successive blind dates. It likely might be fun, but there's no real value in it because you learn very little in such a short time period, and what you do learn is likely misleading. True long term relationships take time to develop, and are the only way to reveal what lies underneath.

There are millions of miles of testing on the new CJ-4 fluids by all the major manufacturers, and many entities such as SAE, API, ILSAC, etc. Further, there are large trucking operations that use UOAs for predictive maintenance. Trust me; it's been done far better than you or I could do it as individuals. So, are the CJ-4s "best" for all applications? No. But are they more than adequate, providing substantial performance for the dollar spent, for most applications? Yes, definitely.

My prediction is twofold:
1) you'll enjoy the endeavor, for something to do.
2) you'll not be able to discern which is "better", because your results will be inconclusive (statistically). You might like (or dislike) something you'd see, but you'll not be able to "prove" anything.


Edited by dnewton3 (09/30/09 05:21 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#1616315 - 09/30/09 04:32 PM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: dnewton3]
salesrep Offline


Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 3339
Loc: lllinois

Stretch out the drain intervals.
_________________________
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

Edward Abbey


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#1616732 - 09/30/09 11:41 PM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: salesrep]
bruce381 Offline


Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 3324
Loc: Millbrae, CA
Originally Posted By: salesrep

Stretch out the drain intervals.


Yeah try 6K

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#1616738 - 09/30/09 11:50 PM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: bruce381]
Steve S Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 18449
Loc: East of IGO
Stratopore filters are for extended oil change intervals, 10,000 mile+.
_________________________
Why do people post I want the best for my car,,, When there isn't anything that is the best on the car to begin with.

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#1620520 - 10/04/09 08:05 PM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: Steve S]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10490
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
Great experiment like to see how the Deere Plus-50 CI-4 holds up,great stout oil. i would take it out longer like said above.
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

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#1660504 - 11/06/09 09:02 AM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: daman]
robertjhoag Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 22
Loc: las vegas, nv
Can someone with a little more insight and experience and I with UOA review the numbers above? I am extremely interested in the VPB for my new Duramax, and numbers with the moly, zinc and phosphorous have caught my attention.

Are these as good indicators of wear protection and friction reduction as they would seem to be? Asking not only from a wear protection standpoint, but also mileage/hp.

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#1660646 - 11/06/09 10:23 AM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: robertjhoag]
jmac Offline


Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 1166
Loc: N. Texas
Well I do not have near the insight or experience as D Hillary or DNewton but I will tell you that you have a very clean analysis there. TBN is still high, flashpoint is great, minor insolubles,
very low wear metals. This oil is doing very well in your engine.

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#1661771 - 11/07/09 02:16 AM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: jmac]
Diesel24 Offline


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 8
Loc: NJ
Thanks everyone for your input, I would have liked to go 5 or 6K, but like I stated I just bought the truck in June and wanted to see if there was a engine problem. Looks like I got lucky, and found a good 5.9!


Edited by Diesel24 (11/07/09 02:16 AM)

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#1661829 - 11/07/09 06:52 AM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: Diesel24]
bullwinkle Offline


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 4175
Loc: Cincinnati, OH, USA
Originally Posted By: Diesel24
Thanks everyone for your input, I would have liked to go 5 or 6K, but like I stated I just bought the truck in June and wanted to see if there was a engine problem. Looks like I got lucky, and found a good 5.9!
Not too sure if there's any such thing as a BAD 5.9!! Soot accumulation is about the only oil-related problem on these CR 5.9s-that's usually the limiting factor in OCI length (then a bypass filter is needed), usually injector problems are pretty obvious (rough idle, smoke, power loss,oil level increasing).
_________________________
06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4 48RE SRW, 93 GMC C3500 6.2 diesel, 89 F-450 7.3 IDI, 98 Cherokee 4.0, 05 Scion xB, 82 Mercedes 300D, company van 12 Ford E-250 4.6

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#1768646 - 02/04/10 05:01 PM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: bullwinkle]
Diesel24 Offline


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 8
Loc: NJ
Just got back the results with the John Deere Plus 50 CI-4 with 3120mi on it. The Aluminum went up a bit, so I guess that will be it for the Plus 50. Blackstone commented that the Valvoline CJ-4 was a little better with piston wear than the J.Deere CI-4. Next is the Valvoline Premium Blue Classic CI-4+ Vs. The Premium Blue CJ-4. I will post the report as soon as I can.


Edited by Diesel24 (02/04/10 05:01 PM)

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#1768648 - 02/04/10 05:02 PM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: Diesel24]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10490
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
how much is a bit,can you post the report?
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

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#1769690 - 02/05/10 12:55 PM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: daman]
Diesel24 Offline


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 8
Loc: NJ
The Aluminum went from 1ppm(Valvoline Premium Blue CJ-4) to 4ppm(J.Deere+50 CI-4). Moly went up to 99ppm from 49ppm, Zinc went down from1405ppm to 1368ppm. I will post the report as soon as I can get to Kinkos, my scanner can't make it large enough to read on the forum.


Edited by Diesel24 (02/05/10 01:04 PM)

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#1769774 - 02/05/10 01:48 PM Re: CJ-4 vs. CI-4 15w40 Diesel Oil [Re: Diesel24]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10490
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
Originally Posted By: Diesel24
The Aluminum went from 1ppm(Valvoline Premium Blue CJ-4) to 4ppm(J.Deere+50 CI-4). Moly went up to 99ppm from 49ppm, Zinc went down from1405ppm to 1368ppm. I will post the report as soon as I can get to Kinkos, my scanner can't make it large enough to read on the forum.

plus has more moly then that,that is too close of variables to call,black stone could be off that much,plus 50 is a great oil id run it again....

yes post it,thanks.
_________________________
"Always"....Mobil 1

Current fill: AFE 0w30

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