Are 5W-20 oils synthetic or non synthetic?, maybe a way to get good cold start lubrication from the oil if not synthetic?

I haven't fully got the hang of the oil grades mainly used in the US, but maybe I can give a picture of the oils used in Sweden/EU to help the discussion. Here non synthetic oils are mostly used in old bangers and lawn mowers, typically 10W-30. The standard type you buy everywhere, even in supermarkets, is 5W-40 "full synthetic" (not true synthetics). This is what most DIY oil changers put in their cars, and can be found in a wide price range. From cheap to long life expensive oils. I use it in both my Jeep TJ and 1977 Saab V4. Climate is snow in winter and warm but not hot summers. normally -10 C to +25 C

BMW and others approved oils are the ones known to BMW to do the job over the long run, long life oils (with i guess better additives that aren't used up as quick). It will be just fine to use any synthetic oil with the right viscosity if you instead change at the good old 10 000 mile intervals to be on the safe side. The 20 000 miles intervals have of course in some cars, like VW/Audi turbo engines and early Saab 9-5 turbos resultet in some oil problems like oil sludge under some driving conditions. It's seems to be a combination of the long intervals and modern low inner friction engines which forces exhaust gases down the cylinders into the oil and breaks it down quicker than expected.

Some intervals have been changed back to 12500 miles due to the problems above. I personally never like/liked the intervals that are now. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I don't know.... :) I change at the old intervals anyway because of my old cars, probably will with other newer cars in the future too as I change the oil myself.

What price is a oil service in US at a dealer?, my -97 Jeep Wrangler would be about $150-200. If I change myself it cost $70 for a medium good (cheap range Mobil1 or Castrol) 5W-40 with quality filter. (the Jeep not only uses loads of fuel, it has a huge oil pan as well :D )

Edit: New cars use 0W-30 or 0W-40 make depending on long life intervals or not. most have more or less long life intervals now. Oil coolers keep the oil temperature under control with these thin oils.

Yes.

Think of CAFE as Cap and Trade for the auto industry.

Whatever oil was used in the engine at the time of rating it's EPA gas mileage is the oil that must be recommended to use in that car.

Oh but the car dealers will tell you it's because of the close tolerance engines of today. After rebuilding engines old and new, many tolerances have been the same for years. BTW, engines in Europe do seem to last longer than they do in the US based on internet chat. Somewhere I read wher a man had over 750,000km on his 4.4l BMW 5 series to give one example.

that is in the car designed to operate at those speeds, now try to do that in camry or accord and resulting oil and coolant temps will be very different

You dance around it here, but CAFE is to allow more units to be produced. There's no conservation to it at all. It's part of a apportioned out consumption formula. Keep the pipelines full. Assembly pipelines ...part producer pipe lines ..more people can afford cars ..more people need service for cars. Our oil change intervals are short. Europe could use lower visc oils too if they had shorter intervals ..and would really need them in the ultra capable chassis if they didn't buffer the sumps to higher capacities and employ coolers and whatnot.

It's not about saving anything. It's about enabling consumption of all kinds.

There's one big objective reason why OCIs for European diesels in North America are shorter than Europe: it's called EGR.

Charlie

Hi,
m37charlie - You said this:
"There's one big objective reason why OCIs for European diesels in North America are shorter than Europe: it's called EGR."

Can you please explain?

EGR: Exhaust Gas Recirculation to control NOx emissions

Hi,
HTSS_TR - Thanks I am very very aware of EGR systems believe me. I was seeking the intent of the comments from the Poster

Thanks

If one examines current emission specs on light and heavy duty diesels one could conclude that the EU is "tighter" on particulates but the US is tighter on NOx. Additionally, the European mfgs embraced urea/SCR much earlier than the US mfgs and as a result the ratio of EGR to SCR systems in the US is much higher than in the EU; including European engines imported to the US. To my knowledge EGR recirculation ratios are lower in Europe, when EGR is used.
It's difficult to tell for sure, but IMHO EGR seems very hard on oil with soot and acid concentrations. 2 of the 5 engine tests in the ACEA E7 and E9 sequences specifically pertain to soot and resultant wear.
For 2008 era heavy duty trucks, the typical emission control system in European trucks seems to be urea/SCR + DPF; although MAN offer EGR as a substitute option. In US trucks it is EGR/DPF although there is a tide of changing opinion towards "lighter" EGR/urea/SCR + DPF for 2010 emissions. Detroit Diesel are actually advertising that "power and economy will be back in 2010", implying that EGR rates will be quite low with the institution of urea/SCR.
Severity of oil stress is just one of EGR's problems. The Cummins 6.7L diesel has a constellation of common problems revolving around EGR including compressor blade soot build-up and the Ford/Navistar's EGR cooler problems are notorious.
It would very interesting to examine prevalence of engine problems and wear rates on MAN engines equipped with EGR vs. SCR. Although they specify 3277 oils for EGR and either 3277-CRT or 3477 oils (I believe E6+ and E9+ respectively, although it might be the other way around) for SCR.
The situation with light duty diesel is analagous.

Charlie

Hi,
3=m37charlie - This is really not the Forum for such a discussion. The Trucker's Forum is!

The real issues with NA heavy diesel engine lubricants started with the L10 Cummins and its design flaws in the mid 1980s
It had started with the Scania and Volvo engines of the late 1960s-early 1970s

Sadly until around 1988 the API never keep up with NA engine developments! Electronic engine management had commenced a little earlier buying them more time. The formation of ACEA hurried them up!

The EGR problems commenced here (in OZ) around MY1999 when the engine Manufacturers realised that they had to comply with the HO requirements for oil specifications - CH-4 was made mandatory over CG-4. I saw many engines where Fleet Engineers thought otherwise and the Manufacturers refused to cover related Warranty matters. I arbitrated in a number of cases! EGR was the culprit

Euro 1 and etc were approached via different design philosophies to NA. Fuel economy was embraced from the outset. Emission controls on heavy diesels seriously commenced in the 1970s. The Euro approach included synthetic lubricant, smaller sump sizes (than NA designs) and longer OCIs and more comprehensive filtration. NA designs in this era were wasteful and very basic!

This is a very complex area that is still current (design and application) with both hydrogen and gas powered buses operating here in OZ. Both of my youngest Sons are CAT trained Technicians and one (No 4) is a Senior MAN Tech. The electronic complexity of the latest MAN engines is quite unbelievable

We are about to see the introduction of the CAT-Navistar truck here in the next year. Son No 4 (youngest) is heavily involved in that process. He is well trained on the "C" series engines

I often get criticised here on BITOG for promoting the use of Manufacturer Approved lubricants - so be it, but it is based on cool cold facts!

Yes, I'm sorry for the long explanation but, I did want to point out there was at least one "objective", non-psychological-cultural (i.e. "change every 3000 miles") reason why in at least the case of post 2002 diesels, NA engines require more frequent changes than Euro engines.
It sounds like you and I are thinking similarly as far as EGR is concerned. As far as my 05 Unimog is concerned, the EGR cooler is sitting in my garage....

Charlie

Hi,
Charlie - I do love Unimogs - a great piece of equipment with a great history

I have spent many a happy (and at times frightening) hour on the test track at Gaggenau over the years. Vertical descents are always... well...interesting!

Its amazing some of the excuses some people come up with to satisfy themselves to the use of thin oils, thinking of 5w40 as being too thick etc. Even though Europe produce some of the best cars in the world, what the heck would they know about oil hey ???

EGR is not something foreign, my plain old Commodore v6 ecotec even has one, and many other older models. I am sure these engines are common in the US as well. And europe is not the only place with stop start traffic, we wont talk about the gridlocked heavily populated cities many have.

Yes some thin oils have been tailor made for certain models, but it should not be made a general recommendation.

In the US, oil change is very very cheap even if you bring your car in to a mechanic to do the change. They are typically $20-40 and some mobile mechanic will come to office complex to do oil change when you work for only $35. The $20 is loss leader that bring in new customer for the mechanics to find something wrong with the cars that they encourage the customers to spend money to fix. I've heard that if Jiffy Lube only change engine oil they would go out of business. Walmart do oil change for $15 because they want to lock you in their store so you will buy more of their stuff. In the end they lose money on oil change but make money on their store sales.

This is the only country that you can get $1 synthetic engine oil after rebate. It used to be even better, I got paid by Valvoline for $1 to take their SynPower after 2 overlapping rebates, 1 cent oil filters, free non-synthetic oil......

Not the same oil.US customers are way more gullible, accepting, believing,trusting of their corporations.And their government is prevented from regulating the corporations' business practices to protect consumers. That is why even Mobil 1 is dumping mineral oil in the US market labeling it 'full synthetic'. That is why Castrol has to put real synthetic oil in their bottles in Europe.Or else...