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#1600403 - 09/14/09 09:18 PM STP vs ZDD Plus
Johnny248 Offline


Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 1984
Loc: Detroit, MI
Hey guys,

Is it worth it to spend the extra money for the ZDD Plus zinc additive, or is the $3 bottle of STP fine? I've seen the voa of the STP and the Zinc content, I'm just wondering if there is something that would make one better than the other?

Thanks
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#1600449 - 09/14/09 09:46 PM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: Johnny248]
TallPaul Offline


Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 13047
Loc: By Detroit
I don't know, but the Redline breakin additive has tons of zddp, something like you would only need 2 oz for a whole crankcase IIRC. There are threads on it.
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#1600625 - 09/15/09 02:34 AM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: TallPaul]
ionbeam22 Offline


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 417
Loc: Boston, MA
Lucas makes a break-in additive as well.

http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display...B%20Zinc%20Plus

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#1600763 - 09/15/09 08:43 AM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: ionbeam22]
Johnny248 Offline


Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 1984
Loc: Detroit, MI
16oz to 4.5qts will bring zinc to 5000ppm. That is a lot.
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'11 Ram 1500 5.7L
'08 Beetle 2.5L
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'95 Four Winns Sundowner 5.0FI
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#1600807 - 09/15/09 09:36 AM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: Johnny248]
ADFD1 Offline


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 1714
Loc: CA.
Any down side to too much ZDDP? Say 1 ounce/qt of the Red Line add?

AD
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AD
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#1600838 - 09/15/09 10:13 AM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: ADFD1]
m37charlie Online   content


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: ADFD1
Any down side to too much ZDDP? Say 1 ounce/qt of the Red Line add?

AD


Yes! Over 2000 ppm (I'm not sure whether Zn or P, use Zn to be safe since it's ~10% higher) can attack camshaft lobes and cause catastrophic chunking. Be very careful with these additives. For example, ZDDPlus has 71800ppm Zn, 51500 ppm P. 30ml in 5qts will raise Zn ~450ppm, P300ppm. In a somewhat typical fairly weak 600ppm SM oil, that will raise Zn/P to "safe" levels of ~1100/900. Certainly add no more than 1/2 bottle (60ml) to get levels up to ~1600/1200. Remember, many Mobil 1s as an example are 900/800 at a minimum, HDEOs range from 900/800 (some CJ4s) to 1400/1300 (some CI4s).
STP was analyzed on the 1st page of the sticky of VOAs. It's <2000ppm undiluted and comes in a vehicle of very thick (~105 CsT @ 100 C.) oil. If you want to raise Zn/P carefully, use one of the more potent single-ingredient ones like ZDDPlus or Redline, know exactly what its' concentration is AND your oil's concentration, and do your sums carefully, recheck at least once. Too much of a good thing is very bad!
Maybe download (for $15) and read SAE technical article 2004-01-2986 "How much ZDP is enough", first.

Charlie
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#1600907 - 09/15/09 11:29 AM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: m37charlie]
Johnny248 Offline


Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 1984
Loc: Detroit, MI
So how would adding the STP to say 6 qts of oil that is SL Rated affect the level?
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#1601009 - 09/15/09 01:00 PM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: m37charlie]
ADFD1 Offline


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 1714
Loc: CA.
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Originally Posted By: ADFD1
Any down side to too much ZDDP? Say 1 ounce/qt of the Red Line add?

AD


Yes! Over 2000 ppm (I'm not sure whether Zn or P, use Zn to be safe since it's ~10% higher) can attack camshaft lobes and cause catastrophic chunking. Be very careful with these additives. For example, ZDDPlus has 71800ppm Zn, 51500 ppm P. 30ml in 5qts will raise Zn ~450ppm, P300ppm. In a somewhat typical fairly weak 600ppm SM oil, that will raise Zn/P to "safe" levels of ~1100/900. Certainly add no more than 1/2 bottle (60ml) to get levels up to ~1600/1200. Remember, many Mobil 1s as an example are 900/800 at a minimum, HDEOs range from 900/800 (some CJ4s) to 1400/1300 (some CI4s).
STP was analyzed on the 1st page of the sticky of VOAs. It's <2000ppm undiluted and comes in a vehicle of very thick (~105 CsT @ 100 C.) oil. If you want to raise Zn/P carefully, use one of the more potent single-ingredient ones like ZDDPlus or Redline, know exactly what its' concentration is AND your oil's concentration, and do your sums carefully, recheck at least once. Too much of a good thing is very bad!
Maybe download (for $15) and read SAE technical article 2004-01-2986 "How much ZDP is enough", first.

Charlie


How about adding 5 oz of the Red line break in add to a 5 qt sump effect a high quality SM oil? Would it put ZDDP to a dangerous level?

AD
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AD
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#1601077 - 09/15/09 01:57 PM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: ADFD1]
m37charlie Online   content


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Alaska
I don't know. What is the Zn and P content, and what else is in it?
And the article says that one probably doesn't need >600-800ppm P for anything except high performance flat tappet engines with high valve spring pressures. OTOH, why do HDEOs have 800-1300 ppm P?

Charlie
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#1601102 - 09/15/09 02:20 PM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: Johnny248]
m37charlie Online   content


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Jdblya
So how would adding the STP to say 6 qts of oil that is SL Rated affect the level?


Take the difference between STP (2000 ppm Zn) and your oil's Zn (let's say 700) and divide by dilution factor. If STP bottle is 1 pint (?), and you already have 6qts, dilution factor is 6.5/0.5 = 13. (2000-700)/13 = 100 ppm increase. Not much, plus you just increased your viscosity an unknown amount.

Charlie
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05 Unimog U500/Unicat camper/Delvac 1 SHC ACEA E4/E5
09 BMW X5 35d/Delvac1 LE 5W30
01 BMW 325xi M1 0W40
52 Dodge M37/Hercules diesel
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#1601213 - 09/15/09 03:56 PM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: Johnny248]
TallPaul Offline


Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 13047
Loc: By Detroit
Originally Posted By: Jdblya
16oz to 4.5qts will bring zinc to 5000ppm. That is a lot.
Use only 2 to 4 ounces per crankcase fill. 5000 ppm is wayyyyyyy toooooo much! You make out on this one because one bottle will last 4-8 oil changes. Calculate it so that you boost only to about 1200 ppm, no need to go higher.

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#1601216 - 09/15/09 04:01 PM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: TallPaul]
ADFD1 Offline


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 1714
Loc: CA.
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Originally Posted By: Jdblya
16oz to 4.5qts will bring zinc to 5000ppm. That is a lot.
Use only 2 to 4 ounces per crankcase fill. 5000 ppm is wayyyyyyy toooooo much! You make out on this one because one bottle will last 4-8 oil changes. Calculate it so that you boost only to about 1200 ppm, no need to go higher.


How about 4 ounces to 5 qts of the RL additive? Will that hurt an engine if added to one of the better oils?

AD
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AD
------------------------------------------------------------
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#1601280 - 09/15/09 05:22 PM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: ADFD1]
[RT] ProjUltraZ Offline


Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 1053
Loc: Honolulu, HI
check out the Redline break-in additive table on this page

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#1601319 - 09/15/09 06:04 PM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: [RT] ProjUltraZ]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 22904
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: [RT
ProjUltraZ]check out the Redline break-in additive table on this page


Good stuff, 1 oz/qt of oil should boost the ZDDP nicely, and not cause any problems. Give Redline a call their tech people are very good.
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#1601357 - 09/15/09 07:08 PM Re: STP vs ZDD Plus [Re: demarpaint]
m37charlie Online   content


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Alaska
Looks to me like ZDDPlus and Redline are the only products I'd add myself, in carefully calculated quantities so as not to exceed 1600 ppm Zn, 13-1400ppm P. I'm curious about the "other ingredients" in the RL.

Charlie
_________________________
05 Unimog U500/Unicat camper/Delvac 1 SHC ACEA E4/E5
09 BMW X5 35d/Delvac1 LE 5W30
01 BMW 325xi M1 0W40
52 Dodge M37/Hercules diesel
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