Some remarks on article on Lucas oil additive

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Here is the link to this famous article that is supposed to prove that (at least some) oil additives are bad:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/lucas/lucas.htm

I found this article very informative but I have a few remarks/questions about it:

1) In the beginning one compares a 80W90 blend with a 80W140 full synthetic. Prior to any additivation, one can see that the full synthetic climbs the gear much less than the blend. Even if the temperature is the same for both oil, the viscosity of the SAE140 is much greater than the one of a SAE90 grade so this comparison is not fair. That's not the point of the article of course but IMHO it would have been better to compare similar grades. The very best would have been to compare the same oil: once with additive and once without the additive...

2) The third pic shows that the full synthetic Pennzoil is getting white even prior to adding the Lucas additive!! So the Pennzoil is foaming a lot by itself and without any additional additive. Foaming is hence not caused by the Lucas additive but there is another thing going on here.

3) Adding Lucas makes the oil climb the gears but also turns the oil white. This means even more trapped air......or that the additive itself is white! Being in Europe I have no idea about the color of the additive. Can anyone tell if the additive is clear or dark by itself? If yes that may explain the light color. I mean I'm using MoS2 additive in my gearoil and without surprise the oil turns black! However this doesn't mean the oil is contaminated or that there is sludge dissolving in the box...

4) If foaming is indeed causing this white color, shouldn't we see a color difference between oil in movement and oil settling down in the pan? Obviously foaming occurs when gears are moving and oil is sprayed everywhere. After settling down for a while, some of the foam would dissappear and the oil should gradually turn back to its original color. A good test would have been to take a pic after 10min settling in the pan. If the oil was still white at the time, it would mean that Lucas additive, if not white itself, is turning the oil white but this would have nothing to do with foaming. Again think about Moly turning any oil black...

5) After all the Schaeffers 267 contains moly right? Is that really a fair choice for color comparison with other oils? After all, does a moly oil turns white when it foams?? I guess no....but it doesn't mean it is not foaming. Taking moly oils as a reference is IMHO the biggest mistake in this article.

I'd be glad to have your expert opinions about these points and especially know more about the actual color of the Lucas additive and whether it may simply turn the oil white without meaning it is foaming (like add some Lucas to the gearoil without starting the gears: if it's white, the additive colors the oil but no foam can form without movement...).

Overall the article is great but I think it lacks real proofs. Unless the above points are clarified, it makes me think the Lucas additive is working as expected and there is absolutely no evidence to me that Lucas make the oil foam!! If indeed the additive was causing that much foam in the oil, any gearbox using it would break in no time! I guess by the time Lucas would be out of business or at least that additive would have been retired.

I'm not mostly favourable to oil additives but I do use Moly in my gearbox and it seems to work for me. Would be glad to know your opinion on these points!
 
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Lucas oil additive is about the color of a weak German beer or a strong American beer.

It's about the color of (U.S.) gear oil.

I can't answer any other questions.

Lucas is snake oil. It does nothing for a properly maintained vehicle. If an oil maker could improve their oil by adding the same thing Lucas puts in their bottle they would.
 
Many oil makers could improve their oil by adding more additive but they chose not to due to cost. Otherwise, we just have one oil for every thing. Not needing Lucas for your application does not mean that Lucas is snake oil. Too expensive maybe, but certainly not snaky.
 
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Originally Posted By: Loobed


If an oil maker could improve their oil by adding the same thing Lucas puts in their bottle they would.



Depends on the price. Schaeffer is blending moly in some of their oils while other don't....manufacturer choice! I think that some oil additive do actually work and some other don't and are snake oil. It's just tough to find which is on either side but I think this article doesn't at all prove that Lucas is snake oil.

Since the Pennzoil foams without the Lucas in it, it would have been interesting to add the Lucas in the Schaeffers to see the results.

What else could make a mix of Lucas + gearoil turn white? Nespresso? :)
 
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Originally Posted By: kilou

Since the Pennzoil foams without the Lucas in it, it would have been interesting to add the Lucas in the Schaeffers to see the results.


I agree that they should have used the same oil in both tests.
 
Originally Posted By: Loobed


What does Lucas do? It makes your oil thicker. If you want thicker oil, buy thicker oil. If you want an oil additive, use something like GM's EOS.


The article appears to favour the opposite: thicker oil doesn't climb the gears as well as thinner oil for the same temp and same rotational speed (see pics 2 and 3) and it does make sense. Adding Lucas on the opposite allow the thicker oil to climb the gears. Maybe Lucas make the oil thicker too but it acts in another way, probably affecting surface tension in the oil.
 
Reading the article over and over, I can see that the conclusion about Lucas causing the oil to foam is somewhat false:

- Pennzoil already turns white (foam) without the Lucas (pic 3) if you crank up the rotational speed.

- Adding Lucas to the oil DOES NOT change the color of it => no additional foaming!!!! See pics 5 and 6: no color change before and after adding Lucas!!

- The very bright white color on pic 7 is due to the totational speed being increased, which causes additional foaming! Whether or not Lucas is present in the oil, additional speed caused the Pennzoil to foam anyway. So we have absolutely no prove this very white color is caused by Lucas. To me it is caused by increased speed.

- On the other hand, the only significant point in the article is that Lucas actually made the thick SAE140 climb the gears while it was not before...and this is what the additive actually is for!


So for me this article is simply a proof that Lucas oil additive is working as expected and all the rest is just bad designed test that prove nothing as far as foaming is concerned.
 
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It seems that BITOG did remove the link to the article from their homepage....good thing!
 
You know those little Lucas oil demo display things you see at various parts stores? These things? I know that if you really crank on the right side handle, you'll start to see little air bubbles in the oil that's at the bottom of the case. If you really crank on the left-side handle, the side without the Lucas additive, you won't see any air bubbles.
 
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That would have been probably the test BITOG should have conducted...

Being in Europe, I've never seen those Lucas shows. However I question how such tests, as the one that was in the BITOG article, translate into real life gearbox situations. Indeed the most "shocking" thing the BITOG article revealed is that the Pennzoil oil alone (no Lucas) was foaming when you crancked the speed. I find it hard to believe that a certified product such as that Pennzoil can foam that bad so I tend to think these kind of tests cannot be used to analyze foaming.

Of course in your case you mention the left side was not foaming while the right side (with Lucas) was foaming. AFAIK foaming also depends on the level in the pan. For instance overfilling a gearbox may cause the oil to foam (I asked that question here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1563270)
Now obviously in the test you mention, I'd bet they start with the same level of oil on both side and then add 20% Lucas additive. Suppose the oil level is correct at first, adding the additive would then result in a 20% overfilling situation!! That's quite a lot and it may explain the difference side by side. The same happened actually in the BITOG article: the guy didn't take care to adjust the level on both side. Now obviously you wouldn't do that in your gearbox!

Anyhow this again are pure suppositions. We would need a well designed test to analyze additive impact but I can see flaws in many of the tests. The best obviously is to run the mix in a real gearbox, at real speed and provide a measure of oil aeration, UOA etc
 
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Originally Posted By: kilou
That would have been probably the test BITOG should have conducted...

Being in Europe, I've never seen those Lucas shows. However I question how such tests, as the one that was in the BITOG article, translate into real life gearbox situations. Indeed the most "shocking" thing the BITOG article revealed is that the Pennzoil oil alone (no Lucas) was foaming when you crancked the speed. I find it hard to believe that a certified product such as that Pennzoil can foam that bad so I tend to think these kind of tests cannot be used to analyze foaming.

Of course in your case you mention the left side was not foaming while the right side (with Lucas) was foaming. AFAIK foaming also depends on the level in the pan. For instance overfilling a gearbox may cause the oil to foam (I asked that question here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1563270)
Now obviously in the test you mention, I'd bet they start with the same level of oil on both side and then add 20% Lucas additive. Suppose the oil level is correct at first, adding the additive would then result in a 20% overfilling situation!! That's quite a lot and it may explain the difference side by side. The same happened actually in the BITOG article: the guy didn't take care to adjust the level on both side. Now obviously you wouldn't do that in your gearbox!

Anyhow this again are pure suppositions. We would need a well designed test to analyze additive impact but I can see flaws in many of the tests. The best obviously is to run the mix in a real gearbox, at real speed and provide a measure of oil aeration, UOA etc


I agree, I like your analysis.
 
The new synthetic version of LOS is not very thick at all. It pours like regular oil.

LOS has an ingredient in it that acts like a stretchy snot that helps pull oil to the top of whatever it's lubricating.

Take some LOS and pour it onto a rag. Then spray some strong solvent into it and mix it up. The solvent will separate this mystery ingredient from the base oil. It will turn white and will become like snotty glue in the rag. This snot is the key to LOS and it's ability to help oil stay on top of gears, etc.
 
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
That snot is probably also what makes oil turn into frothy mayonnaise.


I've never seen LOS make oil look like anything other than oil.

I'm not using it right now. I often wonder how long the effect lasts. I don't think LOS is as sturdy as the oils I've been putting it in.
 
Certainly the Lucas Oil Stabilizer contains tackifier additives. Motor oils are a complex mixture of substances, and diluting them with solvents could disrupt the proper interactions amongst the ingredients, thus causing some additives to plate out.

I don't think the "experiment" on Bitog was representative of the conditions within an engine.
 
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
That snot is probably also what makes oil turn into frothy mayonnaise.


which makes a delicious sandwich..:0
 
I finally got the Lucas Tech Line from Summit Racing since I couldn't find it anywhere and I spoke with a guy that told me the Heavy Duty Stabilizer is 120wt! And that the 60% recommendation on the bottle is for emergency use only if the rods are knocking. I also learned that it shouldn't be used with their Stop Leak and the Synthetic Stabilizer is 80wt! How can gear oil be good in an engine? Somebody please say something.
 
Originally Posted By: noi8u
I finally got the Lucas Tech Line from Summit Racing since I couldn't find it anywhere and I spoke with a guy that told me the Heavy Duty Stabilizer is 120wt! And that the 60% recommendation on the bottle is for emergency use only if the rods are knocking. I also learned that it shouldn't be used with their Stop Leak and the Synthetic Stabilizer is 80wt! How can gear oil be good in an engine? Somebody please say something.


No, it's more serious than that. Lucas' site says its' HD oil stabilzer has a viscosity of 110 cSt @ 100 C. That's 550 Saybolt, which makes it equivalent to a SAE 460-680 gear oil on the scale of 75W-90 or 80W-140 being "normal" gear oil. I don't even know if gear oil is made that thick. Lucas' MSDS says it is made out "residual oil"; which the Navy used to burn in ships, but it was necessary to preheat it.
Mobil does make a lube that thick - it's for open gears...

Charlie
 
The point is, Lucas Oil Stabiliser is not ment to be 100% of the fill in the engine. You are suposed to use it in combination with 80% typical motor oil.

The whole point is to have a combination of lighter and very heavy oil (plus tacky co-polymers), such that the very heavy oils can get carried around the system to get where they need to be. All by themselves, they are too thick.

Lucas Oil stabilizer has its uses, which would generally be in older engines with oil consumption problems or that are prone to dry starts.
 
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