Recent Topics
PPM calculations
by HighMileCummins
Today at 01:56 AM
Overheard at Toyota
by bobbob
Today at 01:39 AM
10/21-11/17 AutoZone Ad
by tenderloin
Yesterday at 11:29 PM
Digital Pop Star Round 2: Hatsune Miku in 'Murrica
by Nick R
Yesterday at 10:33 PM
Driving on a metal grate
by y_p_w
Yesterday at 10:11 PM
Seem like antique old school guy dont give a rat .
by MetalSlug
Yesterday at 09:52 PM
lubegard power care 2 stroke oil and reconditioner
by fixit301
Yesterday at 09:08 PM
Home Solar Electric
by expat
Yesterday at 07:57 PM
Cost to service drum brakes?
by Hollow
Yesterday at 07:51 PM
Anybody spraying Fluid Film regularly?
by bullwinkle
Yesterday at 05:49 PM
Castrol Edge Syntec 0W-20, 0W-30 BC, 0W-40 GC
by SLO_Town
Yesterday at 05:43 PM
TGMO 0w20 6,074m 25,206m (2011 Tacoma)
by JerryBob
Yesterday at 05:22 PM
Newest Members
l1tech, greyghost, banderso, ovidiu, joeymaker
51648 Registered Users
Who's Online
15 registered (HM12460, K23Turbo, 01_celica_gt, Fleetmon, 2 invisible), 545 Guests and 205 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
51648 Members
64 Forums
220986 Topics
3492752 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG

Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
#1581270 - 08/28/09 12:56 PM 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
The chronology:

I sent in a virgin sample to Blackstone for the generally highly regarded Petro Canada Supreme Synthetic (in this case its 0W30 entry). Looking at the numbers I was surprised by the calcium, phosphorus and zinc...all seemed low. Blackstone was kind enough to retest...the new numbers were similar.

I contacted Petro Canada and they requested I submit a sample to them. He did tell me, prior to testing my sample, that he expected, based upon batch analysis that Calcium would be around 2230, Phosphorus 780 and Zinc 870.

I have summarized the information below. (I have a full analysis for only Blackstone and Wearcheck)

All samples were taken from the *same* bottle of new unopened oil.
Code:
		Initial Blackstone	Retest of same sample (Blackstone)	In House Petro Canada Lab	Wearcheck Canada

Calcium		1214			1196					2250				2015

Phosphorus	422			430					780				694

Zinc		572			554					940				814


Edited by 21Rouge (08/28/09 12:56 PM)

Top
#1581272 - 08/28/09 12:58 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott [Re: 21Rouge]
ZZman Offline


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 4230
Loc: Michigan
Hmmm. very interesting.


Edited by ZZman (08/28/09 12:58 PM)
_________________________
2002 Buick Regal GS (3.8 Supercharged) PP, Pure 1 filter
2008 Sebring Hardtop convertible (2.7) M1, Pure 1 filter.

Top
#1581288 - 08/28/09 01:21 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott [Re: ZZman]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9925
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Downright disturbing is what i call it.
People buy oil,switch brands,weights etc based on the numbers coming out of these labs.

I never got into doing UOA because i question the value if a UOA on a single run of a specific brand then doing another on the latest craze trying to compare the two.
Long term trends with the same product i would think may provide better results.

The way this looks it appears that some of these labs may be pulling numbers either from manufacturers spec sheets or out of their behind.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

Top
#1581291 - 08/28/09 01:26 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott [Re: Trav]
pbm Offline


Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 5245
Loc: New York
This tells me that my money is better spent changing my oil than analyzing it.

Top
#1581297 - 08/28/09 01:32 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott [Re: pbm]
Boomer Offline


Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1655
Loc: Pennsylvania
Amen. So when you look at these numbers from UOA, remeber that the standard deviations are apparently HUGE when looking at these numbers. It tells me that these numbers are virtually worthless.
_________________________
2003 Saturn L 300 117,200 miles
2013 VW Passat TDI SE, 16,700miles
2014 VW Jetta TDI SportWagen 3350 miles

Top
#1581300 - 08/28/09 01:39 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: Trav]
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
Originally Posted By: Trav

The way this looks it appears that some of these labs may be pulling numbers either from manufacturers spec sheets


FWIW I purposely did not tell Wearcheck the brand or viscosity of oil.

Top
#1581302 - 08/28/09 01:47 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: Trav]
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
Originally Posted By: Trav
Long term trends with the same product i would think may provide better results.




+1, and now with the caveat that one uses the same lab! smirk

Top
#1581303 - 08/28/09 01:50 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: 21Rouge]
Anies Offline


Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 2734
Loc: NJ
I wonder if additive fallout(some falling to the bottom) would cause numbers like that. I myself am no chemist and not sure if calcium itself can fall out of suspension in oil.
_________________________
2013 Toyota Venza LE AWD (mine)
2014 Ford Fusion SE w/Tech (wifey)
+Dealer Serviced

Top
#1581305 - 08/28/09 01:52 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: Anies]
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
Originally Posted By: Anies
I wonder if additive fallout(some falling to the bottom) would cause numbers like that.


I promise I shook the bottle each time I drew a sample.

Top
#1581306 - 08/28/09 01:53 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: 21Rouge]
FZ1 Offline


Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 4192
Loc: Texas
Now you know why I ain't doin' no UOAS.

Top
#1581307 - 08/28/09 01:54 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: 21Rouge]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9925
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de


Quote:
and now with the caveat that one uses the same lab!


It would sure seem that way.

Did you inform Petro what the sample was beforehand?
The numbers seem real close to what he told you they would be,
Do you get the feeling they just tweaked the numbers and actually tested nothing?





Edited by Trav (08/28/09 01:55 PM)
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

Top
#1581314 - 08/28/09 01:58 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: Trav]
addyguy Offline


Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 13429
Loc: Canada
Wearcheck's numbers look spot-on. I'd believe them the most.

B/S is a a good lab, but when they shouldn't have stood by their numbers - they should have known something was off with their numbers, and investigated thoroughly.
_________________________
2003 Mazda Tribute LX V-6, 172k miles.
Oil: QS Defy 5W-20; Fram Ultra XG2 filter.

Top
#1581320 - 08/28/09 02:00 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: Trav]
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
Originally Posted By: Trav


Did you inform Petro what the sample was beforehand?
The numbers seem real close to what he told you they would be,
Do you get the feeling they just tweaked the numbers and actually tested nothing?



For sure I told them as I only made contact with them because the Blackstone numbers didnt seem right...two tests in a row! So the company knew I was sending in another sample of their 0W30 from the same bottle. Of course I have no idea what was actually done with my sample but given my correspondence with their rep. I take it at face value that it was tested.


Edited by 21Rouge (08/28/09 02:10 PM)

Top
#1581354 - 08/28/09 02:40 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: 21Rouge]
Jim 5 Offline


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 4009
Loc: Calgary Canada
The closeness of wearcheck to petrocan would make me suspect blackstone got the test/sample mixed up on first instance and fudged the numbers the second time. Just guessing though.
_________________________
Jim A
07.5 GMC Sierra 2500HD LMM Rotella 15w-40
09 Odyssey EX-L CT 5w-20
66 Bronco QS 10w-30
08 BMW K1200S Rt 15w-40
08 Pitster Pro X4 Rt 15w-40

Top
#1581357 - 08/28/09 02:42 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: addyguy]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9563
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: addyguy
Wearcheck's numbers look spot-on. I'd believe them the most.

B/S is a a good lab, but when they shouldn't have stood by their numbers - they should have known something was off with their numbers, and investigated thoroughly.



+1

21Rouge, do you have the other VOA figures from Wearcheck including TBN?
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

Top
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >