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#1593890 - 09/09/09 07:46 AM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott [Re: ZZman]
ZZman Offline


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 4233
Loc: Michigan
Blackstone is not an ISO 17025 lab.

Per Blackstone e-mail I got.
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#1595020 - 09/10/09 07:45 AM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott [Re: ZZman]
sunruh Offline


Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 1636
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
21rouge,
now for the real test.

send blackstoned another sample from the same bottle.

and see what your results are.

your "trending" theory will be shot full of lead!

and yes, i've done this. same bottle of oil, sent to the stoners 3 weeks apart. not the same results. and the results were varied enough as to conclude "issues" would have occured had it been a uoa.
a difference in flash by 30, susvis diff of 2.4, calcium of 104 and zinc of 52 to name just a few
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#1595199 - 09/10/09 11:00 AM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott [Re: sunruh]
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
Originally Posted By: sunruh
21rouge,
now for the real test.

send blackstoned another sample from the same bottle.

and see what your results are.


I do still have the same bottle but I am spending no more money on this experiment!

Originally Posted By: sunruh
your "trending" theory will be shot full of lead!


I am not sure who you are referring to with this comment but *I* (unlike others) think there can be no reliable trending if the given lab has widely varying #s on any given sample...as we saw here.

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#1596325 - 09/11/09 08:27 AM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott [Re: 21Rouge]
sunruh Offline


Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 1636
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
exactly! trending cannot be used if the data is worthless.

and it seems i might have taken your line out of context.
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#1597513 - 09/12/09 07:00 AM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: 21Rouge]
ADFD1 Offline


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 1714
Loc: CA.
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: ZZman
So have you contacted the labs with your findings and gotten their answers?


Petro Canada knew of BStone's results as that was my reason for making contact with the company.

I see no reason to contact WearCheck or Petro Canada again. Given that Wearcheck did not know the origin of the virgin sample their #s seem resonable i.e close enough to Petro Canada's results.

I guess BStone could be contacted again now that there are two other VOAs that obviously casts doubt on either Blackstone's equipment or personnel. shrug


Another reason why I haven't gotten in on the UOA bandwagon. If the data is flawed the best person in the world can read it and it is meaningless. After spending a lot of time on the board and keeping an open mind I find UOA's or VOA's not worth it for me. Mind is still open though.

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#1676277 - 11/18/09 12:49 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: SubLGT]
JosephH1 Offline


Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 82
Loc: Lewiston, NY
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
When Dyson was a member here way back when, he used Blackstone.


The last time I had a Dyson "analysis + interpretation" done was back in July 2008, when the price was still $60. I sent my sample to his designated lab, MRT Labs in Houston.


I just had Terry do an analysis in October 2009 and the sample went to MRT in Houston.

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#1677134 - 11/19/09 05:51 AM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: JosephH1]
INDYMAC Offline


Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2333
Loc: Magnolia, TX
This is the lab that Terry Dyson uses:

http://mrtlaboratories.com/

I have seen the ISO certificates for his lab. He has done a lot of work with MRT and has tweaked the processes and procedures they use to gain state of the art acuracy of data. Once he receives the data he will interpret it for you and possibly offer some recommendations on how you can improve the performance of your equipment. I'm not aware of any other lab that will do this for you, except Blackstone (if you pay for the Dyson interpretation). He is comfortable using Blackstone data because he is very familiar with their work and their procedural limitations (just like many of us are). The bottom line with Blackstone from my experience (I still use them from time to time) is that their data has been consistent for me, but limited in its usefullness. They also don't interpret the data for you.
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#1684118 - 11/25/09 06:19 AM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: INDYMAC]
UG_Passat Offline


Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 1090
Loc: NJ
I throw in my 2 cents in:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1281798

I did the same with Blackstone, Dyson (which were sent to MRT) & Oil Analyzers Inc.

In the end 2 conclusions:
1. Different labs = different methods = different results (ie, apples to oranges comparison)
2. Pick a lab and stick with it only, so that you can do trend analysis.

When you post OA's, make sure you include the lab information also.

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#1684261 - 11/25/09 09:29 AM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: UG_Passat]
21Rouge Offline


Registered: 06/04/05
Posts: 1935
Loc: Vinegar Hill
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
2. Pick a lab and stick with it only, so that you can do trend analysis.


I know that seems to make sense but in my case some of the #s seemed to vary too much from the true. And so I felt uneasy even at looking at trend #s from this lab in question. shrug

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#1684552 - 11/25/09 02:41 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: 21Rouge]
UG_Passat Offline


Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 1090
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
2. Pick a lab and stick with it only, so that you can do trend analysis.


I know that seems to make sense but in my case some of the #s seemed to vary too much from the true. And so I felt uneasy even at looking at trend #s from this lab in question. shrug


Time to try someone else.

There is some operator error at the lab.

I had Dyson do some UOA's... when he got the results back, something didn't seem quite right to him, so he asked MRT to run it again, then he got results that he was expecting. Maybe go direct to Dyson??? Kinda pricey but his analysis & second set of eyes are worth the extra money.

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#1730134 - 01/04/10 01:42 AM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: UG_Passat]
revupVQ Offline


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 7
Loc: CA, USA
My results from the same sample:
MRT / Oil Analyzers
Alum 4/11
Copper 14/9
Calcium 2576/3495
Oxidation 56/37
Nitrate 13/24
Fuel 1.25/<1%
Other results in my side-by-side reports were acceptable differences in my book.

I really expected less variance above with the professional lab testing Industry standards they're supposed to practice in general.

Trending is important and have done with one of those labs for many UOA's. Big question is, how do I know my trending has been with true results or inaccurate ones. At some point that can make a big difference in reporting the true 'accurate' health of my engine. Isn't that why we do this in the first place? Is for me...
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#1753390 - 01/24/10 12:32 AM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott [Re: Bill in Utah]
Steelhead Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 875
Loc: Washington
in defense of Blackstone, they saved one gas engine for me from a coolant leak. no more than what often is considered normal evaporation from a cooling system noticed in overflow tank drop.
ran a UOA because the engine is a know intake manifold leaker. i did not tell them the engine block type
showed high levels of K and Na. they warned on coolant leak.
pulled the intake manifold and several chunks of seal were damaged in areas where it normally fails
one saved engine
sent in followup UOAs which showed steady cleaning improvement in K and Na.

quit using them because of all the negative reports here and other forums and their missed analysis. also very sloppy poorly written reports.
what can one expect for a $20 lab analysis?

have several diesels that I will not trust to questionable oil analysis.

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#1768296 - 02/04/10 11:59 AM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott [Re: Steelhead]
shpankey Offline


Registered: 12/21/09
Posts: 1577
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
This pretty much convinced me to not even bother with a UOA. I've been noticing quite a few issues lately with BL UOA's.

Anyone ever use AMSOIL's UOA test kits? Are they any good?
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#1772215 - 02/07/10 11:09 AM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott [Re: shpankey]
revupVQ Offline


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 7
Loc: CA, USA
Originally Posted By: shpankey
.....

Anyone ever use AMSOIL's UOA test kits? Are they any good?
Their kits are fine. Oil Analyzer's is who they use.
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2008 VW EOS 2.0T

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#1775972 - 02/09/10 09:47 PM Re: 3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same b [Re: FZ1]
tig1 Online   content


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 9957
Loc: Illinois
Since VOAs are so unrelible, we can assume UOAs are equally unreliable. People on BITOG make decisions on which oil to use all the time based on which oil has a few PPM lower this or that. Coolant and fuel is something else.


Edited by tig1 (02/09/10 09:48 PM)
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