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#1579069 - 08/26/09 12:06 PM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: BuickGN]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9746
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
I think 10W-30 is usually a more "stable" viscosity in most cases, but when you look at RedLine oils, their 5W-30 doesn't give up any NOACK or HTHS to their 10W-30.

With oils like PP, SynPower, etc. there is a notable advantage for the 10W-30s. Their 10W-30s are less volatile and less shear prone, I'm assuming this is a result of the VIIs.


Agreed. If I could find out if Redline 5w-30 also uses no VIIs, I might try that since there would seem to be no downside.


You could give Dave a call at Red Line and get a quick answer, but I believe RL's 5W-30 uses lighter base oils that their 10W-30 and therefore does contain some VII.
I've run both RL grades and in practice I can't tell any difference between the two grades; they're just too close.


I'm going to have to call him and quit being lazy. I can't run an oil with VIIs because this car is an experiment of running a car for it's entire life span without VIIs and on a heavier than specified oil. I'm very curious to see what the ring lands look like when it gets torn down.



I was mistaken, RL's 5W-30 doesn't contain any VII, their 0W-30 oil does.
To quote Dave at Red Line, "Our 5W20, 5W30 and 10w30 do not contain any VI improver. Our 0W30 does contain a shear stable VI improver. Just some of our very broad viscosity oils require the thickener."

Which begs the question; if you can formulate a 5W-30 without VII's and with the same HTHS and 100C vis but with a higher VI than your 10W-30, doesn't that make your 10W-30 product obsolete?
I think the answer is yes technically but no from a marketing perspective. I suspect the 10W-30 costs less to formulate, therefore your profit margin is higher since you're selling it for the same price as your 5W-30.

Even the best 5W-30 dino's are very shear stable. Conclusion, I think 10W-30 is pretty much an obsolete grade.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1579149 - 08/26/09 01:30 PM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: CATERHAM]
Ben99GT Offline


Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 4303
Loc: MS
Perhaps RedLine's 10W-30 is obselete, but one glance at PP's, SynPower's, or any conventional oil's PDS shows that 10W-30 isn't obselete. All of those 5W-30s have notable disadvantges in NOACK and usually HTHS over their 10W-30 counterparts.
_________________________
2001 F150 Supercrew
1991 Mustang LX notch
1999 Mustang GT


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#1579251 - 08/26/09 03:18 PM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: Ben99GT]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9746
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Ben99GT you're right. But there's enough variation in 30 wt oils that to draw a blanket conclusion that a 10W-30 is "better" or presumably more robust would be an incorrect assumption.

Another good example would be GC 0W-30 which is more robust than both Syntec 5W-30 and 10W-30.

The Devil as they say is in the details!
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1579303 - 08/26/09 03:55 PM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: CATERHAM]
Ben99GT Offline


Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 4303
Loc: MS
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Ben99GT you're right. But there's enough variation in 30 wt oils that to draw a blanket conclusion that a 10W-30 is "better" or presumably more robust would be an incorrect assumption.

Another good example would be GC 0W-30 which is more robust than both Syntec 5W-30 and 10W-30.

The Devil as they say is in the details!


The devil is in the details, but I will say that within brands, that almost any GF-4/SM 10W-30 will be more robust than its GF-4/SM 5W-30 counterpart. GC being a non-ILSAC (or GF-3?) ACEA A3 oil is playing on a different court than its Syntec brothers, and if they are using VIIs to get that 0W-30 (and I bet they are), then a 10W-30 version of GC would likely be more robust still.
_________________________
2001 F150 Supercrew
1991 Mustang LX notch
1999 Mustang GT


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#1579309 - 08/26/09 03:58 PM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: CATERHAM]
BuickGN Offline


Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 3756
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Ben99GT you're right. But there's enough variation in 30 wt oils that to draw a blanket conclusion that a 10W-30 is "better" or presumably more robust would be an incorrect assumption.

Another good example would be GC 0W-30 which is more robust than both Syntec 5W-30 and 10W-30.

The Devil as they say is in the details!




I concede this one. I'll be switching to Redline 5w-30 at the next OCI. It's a no brainer, you're not giving up any HTHS, I *believe* the 5w-30 is ever so slightly thicker at 100C, and it flows better when cold. In this case you're right, Redline 10w-30 is obsolete. I thank you for the info!

However, as you stated, most 10w-30s are not obsolete with the lesser base oils. BTW, I'm wanting to switch now. I may drain the current fill with 1,000 miles and put it in my mother's car which is due and order the 5w-30 now. I hate this OCD!
_________________________
84 Buick GN. 10.60@127 old times. 602hp 620lbs.
06 Acura TL. Lots of suspension and brake mods.

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#1579312 - 08/26/09 04:00 PM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: BuickGN]
Ben99GT Offline


Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 4303
Loc: MS
haha, you've got it bad.
_________________________
2001 F150 Supercrew
1991 Mustang LX notch
1999 Mustang GT


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#1579435 - 08/26/09 06:44 PM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: Ben99GT]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9746
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
BuickGN, for all intents and purposes RL's 5W-30 and 10W-30 are virtually the same product; in application they're that close.
As mentioned previously, I've used them both over the years and at cold temps you'll never see and I couldn't tell them apart.

Next oil change you may want to consider their 5W-20 (I know it's sacrilege to suggest) but with a 100C vis of 9.1 cSt and a HTHS vis of 3.3 cP it's a 30 wt oil in all but name. I'm sure you'll agree it outperforms any 30 wt dino out there. If that's too much of a stretch keep in mind that RL oils are 100% blendable so if you chose to do so you could blend their 5W-30 and 5W-20 to custom tailor your own 30 wt grade.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1579476 - 08/26/09 07:20 PM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: CATERHAM]
HTSS_TR Offline


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 13131
Loc: Irvine, CA
BuickGN loves thick oil, any oil with HTHS below 3.5 has no chance to get into his Buick and Acura engines.
_________________________
'94 LS400
'00 E430
'04 S2000
"Consumerism has accustomed us to waste. But throwing food away is like stealing it from the poor and hungry" Pop Francis

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#1579648 - 08/26/09 10:16 PM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: HTSS_TR]
BuickGN Offline


Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 3756
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
BuickGN loves thick oil, any oil with HTHS below 3.5 has no chance to get into his Buick and Acura engines.


Not necessarily. I would run a 0w-10 if it had an HTHS of 3.5 or greater. This is why Redline 5w-20 is perfect for someone like me. Again, the only reason I'm not running it is to say I told you so when the TL has half a million miles on it running a thicker than spec'd oil.
_________________________
84 Buick GN. 10.60@127 old times. 602hp 620lbs.
06 Acura TL. Lots of suspension and brake mods.

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#1579760 - 08/27/09 12:37 AM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: BuickGN]
HTSS_TR Offline


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 13131
Loc: Irvine, CA
Honda engineers recommend dino 10W30 for S2000 since 1999. The first generation S2000, or AP1, generate about 120hp/liter and redline at 9000 RPM. They probably tested S2000 with more than 1 weight and determined that all it needs is dino 10W30. Until around 2006 they recommended 5W40 for cold climate. But clearly stated that OCI is the same at 7.5km/1yr for non-severe conditions.

To Honda engine engineers, 10W30 is more shear stable then 5W30 in S2000. But those Honda engineers also recommends M1 5W30 in Acura RDX. This leads me to believe that for API SL and before, 10W30 is more shear stable than 5W30 but it is not true for SM.
_________________________
'94 LS400
'00 E430
'04 S2000
"Consumerism has accustomed us to waste. But throwing food away is like stealing it from the poor and hungry" Pop Francis

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#1579769 - 08/27/09 12:54 AM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: BuickGN]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9746
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I don't think running a somewhat heavier than spec'd, slippery Polyol Ester 30 wt oil in a mild to hot climate will be proving much particularly in a well engineered Honda engine that has no lubrication issues. Certainly not enough to warrant an "I told you so". Heck if you don't rack up a half million miles I'd be surprised!
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#1579882 - 08/27/09 08:11 AM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: CATERHAM]
BuickGN Offline


Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 3756
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I don't think running a somewhat heavier than spec'd, slippery Polyol Ester 30 wt oil in a mild to hot climate will be proving much particularly in a well engineered Honda engine that has no lubrication issues. Certainly not enough to warrant an "I told you so". Heck if you don't rack up a half million miles I'd be surprised!


I agree, but there are the gloom and doom guys that said it wouldn't make it through the first winter. We all know it will be fine but I need something to say when I'm asked how I can be sure the thick stuff will make it last.

And it's an Acura!!! Not a lowly Honda! LOL
_________________________
84 Buick GN. 10.60@127 old times. 602hp 620lbs.
06 Acura TL. Lots of suspension and brake mods.

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#1579948 - 08/27/09 09:17 AM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: BuickGN]
bepperb Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 4879
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
BuickGN, thank god you are going to use a 5w so that all the nooks and crannies can finally get cleaned out.

Yeah, I'd have to side with CaterHam that eventually 10w-30 will become obsolete and some manufacturers are already there with their synthetics. For marketing purposes we probably have another decade of seeing it widely available, though.

I'm surprised so many see a really high HTHS is always desireable around here, as that also results in a reduction in fuel economy (even moreso than viscosity in one study) which is important to some people. Me... I just hang out around 3 and call it a day, but with the salt around here 200,000 is about as far as I'll take a car.
_________________________
2004 Highlander 2.4
2011 Toyota Sienna 3.5
Recently Gone:
2006 Accord 2.4l K24A8
1993 Kawi EX 500

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#1579957 - 08/27/09 09:33 AM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: bepperb]
BuickGN Offline


Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 3756
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: bepperb
BuickGN, thank god you are going to use a 5w so that all the nooks and crannies can finally get cleaned out.

Yeah, I'd have to side with CaterHam that eventually 10w-30 will become obsolete and some manufacturers are already there with their synthetics. For marketing purposes we probably have another decade of seeing it widely available, though.

I'm surprised so many see a really high HTHS is always desireable around here, as that also results in a reduction in fuel economy (even moreso than viscosity in one study) which is important to some people. Me... I just hang out around 3 and call it a day, but with the salt around here 200,000 is about as far as I'll take a car.


I agree, once the regular 5w-30s become as shear stable as a 10w-30, there's no point in having the 10w-30 around.....as far as I know.

Around here, the bodies last forever. That's why the HTHS is so important to me. Gas mileage differences are so small it doesn't even factor in to which oil I choose. As of now, gas is free anyway.

But yes, now the nooks and crannies will be well lubed lol. I bet they're completely dry with the syrup I've been running.
_________________________
84 Buick GN. 10.60@127 old times. 602hp 620lbs.
06 Acura TL. Lots of suspension and brake mods.

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#1580008 - 08/27/09 10:18 AM Re: 10w30 "better" than 5w30 [Re: BuickGN]
CharlieJ Offline


Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 1387
Loc: FL
Every reason why I chose to go with Pennzoil Platinum 10w-30 is in this tread. cheers
_________________________
'07 Mazda3 2.3 Mobil 1 0w-20
'84 Mazda Rx-7 Valvoline Maxlife 10w-30

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