BMW 135i oil issue

[JAG]

I want to alert fellow owners who have the BMW N54 engine. For those who don't know, it is the twin-turbo, direct-injected, hot-running engine in the 135i, 335i, and some other models.

I bought my 135i new and it runs flawlessly. I changed the Factory Fill at 2000 miles, and filled with Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel Truck (CJ-4 version).
Changed that at 4500 miles and re-filled with same.
At 6500 miles, dealer changed oil and used BMW 5W-30 oil.

When I got it home from the free oil change at the dealer and looked inside the oil fill hole, I saw quite a few sand-sized particles loosely sitting on some internal valve cover surfaces. I wiped out what particles I could and put them on a piece of paper so I could view them under magnification to determine whether they are mostly carbon, metallic ash, or varnish particles. I think they must be varnish particles. They are reddish-brown, semi-transparent, non-brittle (malleable), and they have smooth surfaces.

So this came as a big surprise given the very frequent oil change intervals. Those of you who have this engine may want to look for deposits inside the oil fill hole or anywhere else. It would be helpful to hear any findings.

 

[MCompact]

I have a Mazdaspeed 3 which is another DI turbo motor. Problems with that engine include heavy intake valve deposits and lots of smoking turbos(a Mazda TSB claims that a PCV fix is in the works to cure the smoking issue). And then there are the Audi/VW problems. This is all a roundabout way of saying that I'm beginning to think that none of the DI turbos are ready for prime time.

 

[JHZR2]

There are a few threads on the N54. Thanks for updating. Im waiting to buy my 135i vert because of concerns over the N54. I may bite the bullet before the bod style goes away, but I still have concerns...

 

[MCompact]

I'm dumping my Mazdaspeed track rat and replacing it with either an E46 M3 or 330i ZHP(which I should have bought to begin with). I want to see how the N54 holds up after 100,000 miles before I pick one up.

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: JAG
...I saw quite a few sand-sized particles...

Interesting, keep us posted!

Great car BTW! Also, if you haven't seen this list of measures to combat valve deposits on DI engines yet, here it is. The 335 etc. DI engines are starting to show significant deposits now that people are getting some miles on them.

Here is a video of the BG induction service that Crew219 found on VW vortex http://www.vimeo.com/3989681

Also, here are the techniques I know of to deal with valve deposits (from the audi/Mikeinaustin thread):

Some very easy/low cost preventative options that can help but will not solve the DI valve deposit problems:

1) Use a low volatility and good cleaning oil (cost: additional $5-$10 per oil change)
2) Seafoam, lubro moly valve cleaner, water, etc. through the intake at every oil change (cost: $3.50-$10)
3) Regular italian tuneups (cost: gas)
4) Catch can (all kinds of flavors out there) (cost: $30-$300)
5) Fuel injector cleaner in the gas to deal with fuel injector deposits (will not help with intake valve or intake deposits) (cost:$5-$10)

More difficult/expensive "helping but not solving options"

6) BG induction service or similar (cost: $135-$250?)
7) water/meth injection (cost: ???)
8) remove intake and clean valves every 50k or so (cost: ????)

Some one-time-fix-the-problem options:

1) bypass pcv and route to exhaust (search for saaber2 thread "bypassing pcv") (cost $125-$175)
2) Run a catch can that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)?)? may have smell or freezing issues?) (cost: $300?)
3) Run a "down tube" or "road tube" that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)?) (cost: $25 -$50)

 

[buster]

Great info Saaber.

Strange. Could deposits be forming that quickly?

JAG, have you considered using Redline? BMW guys seem to really like it.

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: buster
Could deposits be forming that quickly?

We know from RL_RS4's work that buildup occurs as fast as 800 miles after cleaning (at least on the RS4 engine).
F.e. Here are cleaned valves:

and after 2000 miles they looked like this:

We also have evidence of buildup in 5k miles on a VW 2.0FSI that is using both a catch can and water/meth injection.

For what it is worth, we have photo evidence from two 2.0 FSI owners that show that the BG service is working pretty well. I have also heard of at least one Porsche dealer recommending BG service every 2 years on Porsche DI engines. In terms of cleaning up deposits that are already there, it looks like BG service is second best after physical removal of deposits by hand. However, I much, much, prefer preventing the deposits from ever forming in the first place by eliminating PCV return to the intake.

I started treating deposits on my 2.0 FSI at 9k miles on the car (lubro-moly valve cleaner sucked into intake via basketball needle method) and I wish I would have started at 5k. But I have the problem solved now through the bypass to exhaust so there won't be any new deposits, but I'm sure there are some from the pre bypass period, despite using the valve cleaner into the intake treatment(i.e. seafoaming).

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: buster
JAG, have you considered using Redline? BMW guys seem to really like it.

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13

I have been using redline 5W40 on the VW 2.0 FSI and noticed that turbo spool-up was noticeably improved, despite the 5W40 being a pretty thick oil. I had to adjust how I drove around town a little because it would spin the tires occasionally if driven the same. No more power was noticed overall but the power seemed to be available much sooner. Don't know if the BMW engine would act the same or not.

Also, I didn't mean to imply above that the particles are due to valve deposits, I was actually changing the subject more as just an FYI. Back onto the original subject, I noticed the same particles in my volvo turbo when I was running auto-RX (auto RX was visibly cleaning reddish brown goo left by previously used oil on that car). They went away after running auto RX. What could the particles be? That Volvo did have a pretty strong varnish to it but probably not unusual.

 

[JAG]

Thank you saaber1 for all of the information. Since the particles I found appear to be varnish and not valve deposit material, I do not think that the direct injected engine feature is the main culprit. I think it aggravates the situation by causing more fuel dilution (gas has poor oxidative stability) but I think the main culprit are the high bulk and localized oil temperatures. Mine has a factory oil cooler but 240F sump temperature is still a common occurrence in everyday driving. The turbos obviously add a high localized oil temperature factor as well. The engine bay gets unbelievably hot during summer days. Basically, it's an oil cooking machine. LOL.

I'd bet those particles you saw in the Volvo engine were varnish as well.

When I was at BMW service last weekend, I saw they offer a valve cleaning procedure and it costs $150. They showed before and after pictures and the results were dramatic (of course...it's an advertisement, but I'm sure it is true). Eventually I'll probably need to have that done. I'll check out the BG video you posted.

buster, yes I've decided that I am going to try Red Line 5W-40. I cannot think of any better oil to try for this particular engine considering that withstanding high oil temperatures is the limiting factor on the oil change interval. I'm kicking myself for not doing that from the start instead of using M1 5W-40 TDT. I'm happy though that I found out quickly that that oil doesn't cut it in this engine (or in my VW GTI 1.8T, as I posted about in another thread).

I feel really sorry for the unsuspecting owners of this type of engine who are going to get serious deposit problems and this will likely even apply to those who have the oil changed much more often than recommended.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: saaber1
Originally Posted By: buster
Could deposits be forming that quickly?

We know from RL_RS4's work that buildup occurs as fast as 800 miles after cleaning (at least on the RS4 engine).
F.e. Here are cleaned valves:

and after 2000 miles they looked like this:

We also have evidence of buildup in 5k miles on a VW 2.0FSI that is using both a catch can and water/meth injection.



Question:

In a DI engine, these valve faces, in theory, only see air. I saw lots of mention of PCV bypass being in a number of the suspected permanent fixes. Traditional FI engines have these valves exposed to air, fuel, and PCV gases. DI engines expose these valve faces to air and PCV gases.

Why does lack of exposure to fuel create a problem we're "blaming" on DI? I'd wager that in this case fuel detergents help to clean things in a typical engine and that fuel isn't there to clean these deposits (which would TEND to form in either engine) from a DI engine.

Also, it's great that we have 5k mile build-up photos and all, but do we have equivalent photos from a traditional FI engine with PCV given average fuel (no FP, Seafoam, MMO or other stuff added)?

FWIW, all of these valve photos have nothing to do with oil, unless PCV vapours are indirectly but radically influenced by oil choice.

 

[moribundman]

For comparison, one of the valves of my regular FI Audi V6 12 valve engine at 185k miles:

I use often, but not always a bottle of fuel system cleaner before an oil change. I don't think I've added any in over 10k miles.

 

[bruno]

I've rear and reread your post and have a question .

Is your car a diesel ?

If not why are you using the wrong spec oil in it ?

And why are you surprised at the outcome ?

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: moribundman
For comparison, one of the valves of my regular FI Audi V6 12 valve engine at 185k miles:


Amazing!!! All DI owners are envious of you!

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: bruno
I've rear and reread your post and have a question .

Is your car a diesel ?

If not why are you using the wrong spec oil in it ?

And why are you surprised at the outcome ?



The only spec for an N54 is BMW LL-01. This requires an A3 rated oil, but that is no big deal. TDT 5w-40 would likely easily meet A3/B3, and it is likely API SM, so the only thing missing is the LL-01 spec which is an old one...

So why wouldn't TDT work exactly?

 

[bruno]

Interesting that the Mobil spec sheet says nothing about ACE 3 and only lists diesel specs .

My point is why play games when the appropriate oil is available ?

 

[JAG]

Bruno, that is more than enough nonsense for one thread and I have no patience for it.

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: JAG
... The engine bay gets unbelievably hot during summer days. ...


Just a thought, but I wonder if putting dupont krytox or similar on the hoses, etc. in the engine bay may buy some life for them in the long run by keeping them from drying out and such.

My Boxster S had a coolant tank crack (common to all 986 boxsters) due to the repeated heat cyling. I often wondered if there could have been some proactive maint. I could have done for that (but it was hard plastic instead of rubber like hoses so nothing would have helped probably). I concluded that periodically washing out it's 3 radiators with a high pressure hose at a car wash was the best proactive maint. I could do for the cooling system (other than regular changing of course). The first time I did it the normal operating temp dropped about 10 degrees and stayed there. I also remember replacing a gazillion coolant hoses on a BMW V12 after about 100k miles so that made me think of the krytox proactive maint. possibility.

Back to valve topic, the 2 photo examples of 2.0 FSI's that had the Valve cleaning (induction method, BG in this case) were really pretty impressive. If I get time I'll dig them up and post.

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: moribundman
For comparison, one of the valves of my regular FI Audi V6 12 valve engine at 185k miles:

I use often, but not always a bottle of fuel system cleaner before an oil change. I don't think I've added any in over 10k miles.


Check out this video of combustion inside the cylinder and fuel wash of the intake valve for FI engine. Makes sense that fuel injector cleaner (or lubro-moly valve cleaner) in the gas would help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy_yaAOKjA8&feature=related

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: saaber1
Originally Posted By: JAG
... The engine bay gets unbelievably hot during summer days. ...

Just a thought, but I wonder if putting dupont krytox or similar on the hoses, etc. in the engine bay may buy some life for them in the long run by keeping them from drying out and such.

Good idea. Hose replacements can get quite expensive. I have been applying a rubber treatment product but I will buy something more effective when I use it all up. I also pop the hood after driving when I can to let the heat out faster.

Very cool that you had a V12 BMW!

Thanks for the youtube link. I'll check it out...slowly with my dial-up connection.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: bruno
Interesting that the Mobil spec sheet says nothing about ACE 3 and only lists diesel specs .

My point is why play games when the appropriate oil is available ?
I think Bruno is trying in a round-a-bout way to point to the nasty Mg ADDS in MOST diesel formulations that tend to end up on the valves and CC as deposit hot spots. I have not looked at a TDT VOA for Mg salts. Best bet is a SM oil majority group V base so you'll have good inherent lubricity and boundary lubrication in the basestock, and less need for highish Ca detergents and Zn EP and other metals that will end up in the worng places.