What is the consensus on Rotella T 5w40?

[Blue99]

Big O Dave, Bruce will no doubt provide you with a very good answer to this question.

I think, however, what he is referring to, is that VI improvers are structured from long "spidery" chains that uncoil with higher temps above 150F.

With use, portions of these chains break off & get clumped together by the dispersant additives. These small clumps are a precurssor for formation of sludge.

- Just my non-chemist understanding of the issue!

 

[Big O Dave]

quote:

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Originally posted by bruce381:
...less VII equals less sludge.
bruce

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I'm not challenging you, Bruce, but could you explain why less VII equals less sludge? I have long understood that it is much better to have less VII in an oil, but I always just assumed it was because VII's breakdown, allowing the viscosity of the oil to become lower... I did not know VII's contribute to sludge.

 

[askoop]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

I again checked out the price at Wally world. The M1 5w40 is only about $0.40 more per quart, I think I will go the M1 route.

I have used M1 5w30 in the past, and it was great during the winter, but once it began to get warm again, I was pretty leary of having it in there, and it seemed to me that my engine was a little louder.

I currently am running Pennz Plat 10w30 (free after rebates from AA) and have a few more thousand to go on my OCI.

Would you feel good about running the M1 5w40 to 10K with 5K filter (FL-1A) changes? From the UOAs I have seen on the t&suv I think I should be safe... opinions?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
I would expect that the filter would be suitable for a 10k change too! Most are!!

Always remember that there really is no magic oil that will significantly extend engine life over another once all comparative specifications are taken into account

Your choice of lubricant is a wise and sensible one

Doug

 

[salesrep]

Doug

quote:

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Always remember that there really is no magic oil that will significantly extend engine life over another once all comparative specifications are taken into account

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You surprise me with this response. Oil is oil?

 

[Mulaka]

I used it in a 2002 Dodge Ram Quad Cab V8 and it was a great oil...my only complaint was that it made a VERY NOTICABLE difference in gas milage. It went from pretty great for a truck to downright awefull. After a year of trying to figure out what happened (I didn't know anything about oil then) I switched back to Penz and the gas mileage went back up.

 

[Pablo]

askoop - my honest opinion is that Rotella is just an OK oil. I think it has improved in the last year or two or so. I don't bad mouth any oils - but look at some of the early Rotella UOA's, not stellar.

That said it would be OK in a Jeep with under 5K OCI's.

 

[99]

quote:

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Originally posted by dave1251:
99 can you please elaburate why you only recommend such a short OCI with an HDEO?

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I don't do long OCIs regardless of what oil it is-I never bought into long OCIs, sorry. Most Jeeps see pretty rough conditions that puts them into the severe service category and the 4.0 also runs hot at 210. I change my Delvac 1300 Super 15W40 in my 4.0 every 3K...want the old oil to reuse? You're more than welcome to it if you are ever down in Florida.

 

[salesrep]

Doit

quote:

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Doug, kudos to you for having big "man jewels" to state that "there is no magic oil that will SIGNIFICANTLY extend engine life over another once all comparitive specifications (and variables) are taken into account".

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In essence you are saying that oil is oil and that it makes no difference what one uses and that your engine will last the same regardless of base stock,add pack, or blending.

quote:

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He is challenging anyone here to prove with facts that one brand will extend the engine life compared to another. It simply hasn't been done here.

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One of several studies done on using a quality lubricant to extend engine life.
http://rockproducts.com/mag/rock_texas_mine_extends/

"Several of the mine's transport engines achieved or exceeded 30,000 hours of performance before needing an overhaul. The industry standard for engines in similar operating conditions is 16,000 hours. The program also helped extend oil-drain intervals from the manufacturer recommended 300 hours to more than 500 hours."

[ September 24, 2005, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: salesrep ]

 

[brian fix]

Yes Mobil 5w-40 is a great oil,and so is Shell Rotella T syn. ,also I might add Schaeffers 5w-40 9000 Supreme will not only compair to these other oils,but can exceed the specs that they meet,,,,the margins though are close ,but Schaeffers does pull better real world results in the end,,,,,,,,,,,BL

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
salesrep - my comment as follows was quite precise;

"Always remember that there really is no magic oil that will significantly extend engine life over another once all comparative specifications are taken into account"

I stand by this - if there is a magic oil I have never seen or heard of it! End user testimonials, "independent" tests, 4 ball comparisons, movements of 2 or 3ppm of iron etc. in UOAs etc and other uncontrolled ‘non Industry" tests are not what I can "conclusive evidence"

For years I have had Client's trucks (hundreds of them) identical to mine, running alongside for millions of kms using two Brands of conforming mineral HDEOs. Mine of course being on a conforming full synthetic 5w-40 HDEO. Service intervals strictly controlled of course with in-house and external suppliers and using UOAs where appropriate
Since 1997 there has been no evidence at all of SIGNIFICANT variances in engine component life or end of OCI top up rates!
There is a cost benefit equation to consider. I run my oil four times longer than they do and I use a centrifuge separator. My "break even" point to surpass their economics is above 500kkms (310k miles) though
I have seen dozers/scrapers and loaders easily run out beyond 25k hours on a mineral HDEO without rebuild

IMHE the same can be said of MB, Cummins, CATs and the range of heavy Euro diesel engines from Volvo, Scania and IVECO etc where engine/component life remains much the same across conforming and Approved oil Brands

Drivelines are different, and synthetic gearbox and differential lubricants can and do extend seal life and reduce wear on selectors and bearings

Most times as you are aware it all comes back to the concept of programmed maintenance and the level of expertise of the practitioners. This is critical to long (or the intended) component life and UOAs can assist on the way to ensure that the correct cost benefits are achieved

Comparing misapplied products or those that do not have "comparative specifications" may show variances. By "comparative specifications" I mean those lubricants that are recommended by the engine's Manufacturer and that are Quality Approved accordingly for a specific application and at their stated OCI/service intervals

Regards
Doug

 

[doitmyself]

Doug, kudos to you for having big "man jewels" to state that "there is no magic oil that will SIGNIFICANTLY extend engine life over another once all comparitive specifications (and variables) are taken into account".

I don't think Doug is saying oil is oil - he knows of all the different base oil/additive package differences among brands.

He is challenging anyone here to prove with facts that one brand will extend the engine life compared to another. It simply hasn't been done here.

 

[bruce381]

Doug so any oil of same comforming spec will offer same engine life??? I think you just said what no one that makes specalty lubes wants said.
also interesting that top oil oil was no different I would think that the synthetic with a lower evap rate would reduce oil top off.
bruce

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
yes IMHO Bruce - as long as all of the other factors are comparable as staded earlier!

Some "exotics" may be able to survive extended OCIs and justify their cost very well indeed

The Trucking, Earthmoving and Marine Industries here have been very slow to embrace semi or full synthetic engine oils
Here some fleets have tried them and finally stayed with mineral lubricants citing contamination, cost, fractured service routines, inventory costs and etc.

The main "drivers" have been the Euro makers MB, MAN and lately IVECO - certainly NOT the US engine makers!!

I said;
"Since 1997 there has been no evidence at all of SIGNIFICANT variances in engine component life or end of OCI top up rates!

The OCIs are at 18-25kkms (around 12k miles) at this point top up rate is still very low or non existant. Each truck is "pitted" weekly and Fleet Management allows engine oil levels to reach around "low" level leading up to OC point

OC occurs every 4 or 5 weeks

Doug

 

[Gary Allan]

Can I condense that to say that, given your limited choices, the use of a synth has nothing to do with wear ..and everything to do with downtime??

It does figure in your commercial/heavy duty application that if there was some radical wear reduction with just adding a more expensive oil (that lasts up to 5 times longer in service) that it would surely be widely adopted ..regardless of any inconveniences involved. The savings would be way on the plus side.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Gary,

yes

Doug

 

[salesrep]

I think that engine manufacturers have brought up the quality of oil in the last few years. Bringing base stock and add packs closer together. One of doug's biggest points is oci's and cost savings/bottom line. Another he did not mention may be mpg.

bruce381

quote:

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I think you just said what no one that makes specalty lubes wants said.

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Nah. Discussions like these bring out a number of advantages small blenders have with a variety of products. Engine oils being just one.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
salesrep - you said:
"Nah. Discussions like these bring out a number of advantages small blenders have with a variety of products. Engine oils being just one."

A big ADVANTAGE of smaller suppliers often overlooked in todays "cut throat" world is SERVICE! SERVICE in its widest context!
The service levels of EoM and Castrol here in now the worst I have ever seen it. Shell is better! A small OZ blender Penrite is making inroads as they appear to be service driven
A caveat is that their products must conform and comply of course!
Specialised gear/transmission lubricants and special application oils/greases is just a couple of areas where small blenders have a great advantage especially with car enthusiasts. Lessor so with fleet operators, more so in factories etc I presume

Pablo and the other Amsoil dealers on here seem to be service "driven". Sadly some smaller blenders appear at times to be a little bit too "gung-ho" about how good their products are
This along with rubbishing other competitors products just destroys their professional image IMHO

Outrageous claims of OCIs that cannot be replicated in the real world or of a great reduction in engine wear rates and etc are a big turn off for many! And the issue of fuel economy.....!

As for fuel economy in heavy diesels, we have talked that one to death but the prospect is there. The SAE paper 2000-01-2056 is worth a read

It is possible for an OD to get better fuel ecomomy in going from a 15w-40 mineral to a 5w-40 synthetic HDEO but too many uncontrollable variables exist overall to truely quantify it in the "real world"! The same applies to one brand trials where great results are obtained - well we all know about those

As for this thread - Shell's Rotella is a
great product range! The real world of commercial users and truckers buy it in volumes around the world and have done for decades

Their Rotella "T" 5w-40 is simply one of the best oils around!!!

Oh Pablo - you said this;
"... but look at some of the early Rotella UOA's, not stellar."

Pray tell me what is a "stellar" performance from an oil? And how is it measured??

Doug

 

[Pablo]

quote:

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Oh Pablo - you said this;
"... but look at some of the early Rotella UOA's, not stellar."

Pray tell me what is a "stellar" performance from an oil? And how is it measured??

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Good question. Highly individualized - it really depends on the vehicle and the situation - over time (series of UOA's). But, in very general terms an oil, in a gas automobile in nominal factory operation parameters (in tune!) with say 50/50 mix of highway/city driving at 10,000 miles with single digit ppm Fe and Al wear, less than 1-2 ppm Pb, Sn, Cu, TBN of 5+, low relative oxidation and nitration numbers, and staying within +/- 1 SAE viscosity grade. I think we know this when we see it.

You will notice that PRICE of the oil is not mentioned, but can be factored in (as we often debate) to come up with the period COST of the lubricant.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi Pablo,
thanks!
Yes highly individualised - and highly individualised interpretation too no doubt

When I mention cost effectiveness (used since the early 1970s - with quill pen then) I take "whole of life" or circumstances into account and use DCF with capital expenditures

With engine oil we take a cheap conforming oil as the initial baseline OCI. Oil, filter and labour cost are quantified. We extend OCI from that point using UOAs and factoring in topup, once determined that becomes the "actual" baseline OCI and the costs are determined there
I then move up in oil "quality" (and usually price) from that point using the same basic cost/benefit parameters. At the top end we see the maximum OCI including filter life (we have never changed filter during an OCI). There is a possibility that somewhere in the middle is the best overall cost/benefit choice. All "running costs" are calculated as cents per km (can be hours in certain cases)

The break even point is always the original "actual" baseline cost. Labour costs are a big factor, as is equipment downtime

"Bonuses" on the way may be lessor valve train adjustments and etc. I have never bargained on holding a piece of equipment up to rebuild time!

Regards