4 cyl. 0w20, hollow cheap sound

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My only complaint concerning my Mazda 6 (running M1 0w20) is that it's slightly loud - just slighlty, and I don't mind loud so much, but it's has a hollow cheap sound to the loud. I've heard this same sound from other small cars driving by - Hondas, etc.

I was wondering if the thin oil contributed to it. So last nite, when I did a dipstick sample for a UOA, I went ahead and drained a full qt (actually a bit more), and replaced it with 1 qt Mobil 5000 10w40. So that's about 3 qts M1 0w20 and 1 qt 10w40. I wanted to chk several things - I knew this would give me a ~5w30 - I want to know how it sounds, handles and the mpg when running slightly above xxw20. If the results are good, I might add a qt of w30 to my w20 at my next OC.

So I took the car for a test drive after the w40 add. I know this is subjective, but the "loud/cheap/hollow" sound has decreased - sounds nice, still feels nice. I like it. Something to brood on concerning my next OC.

Anyone else notice this type of noise from a 4cyl running 0w20 or 5w20? It's not just Mazdas. Seems to be the new sound of the small 4-cyl. I'm wondering if most are perhaps running xxw20. (?)
 
I've always felt that my wifes Accord revved a bit freer but also sounded a bit different on 5w20. Your description of a "hollow cheap sound" is actually a good analogy.
 
I have a 09 Corolla for which the US manual recommends 0w20 or 5w20. It came with 5w20, at the first change I used Mobil 1 5w30, and the second change (free at dealer) they used Toyota 5w20 oil, which is currently still in the car. Mileage has been consistent regardless of oil, but the car definitely seemed to run smoother and quieter with the 5w30 in it. I think you're on to something with the thinner oils. I've got some M1 0w30 AFE I've stockpiled, so I'll be using that for the next few changes. I'll see how that goes... I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the 20wt oils from a protection standpoint, but the car definitely feels and sounds smoother with a slightly heavier oil in it.
 
I agree. My '07 Corolla (1.8L I-4) and my '07 Chrysler (3.8L V-6) both call for 5W-20 oil, and I run a thin (Havoline DS) 5W-30 in both. Because of warranty requirements and slow rate of mile accumulation, I change the oil in both at 3,000 miles. I bought the Corolla and I assume it had cheap 5W-20 dealer bulk in it. I changed to Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20, and was satisfied with it. But at the rate that I put on miles (slow) and warranty requirements, I figure I'd just change it at 3,000 miles like our Chrysler.

So I got off the synthetic and just put in some Chevron Supreme, 5W-30. I immediately noticed a more "muffled" sound and a more refined feel. I changed that after 3,000 with the Havoline DS I have in it now, still 5W-30, and same positive results.

I'll continue to use it I think. I have 16 qts stashed up at the moment.
 
ive been running M1 0w30 in my 05 celica (1zz-fe) for the last two OCI. to be honest i dont think the 1zz likes 20w oil too well. Last week i changed my oil after 6 months and put in some castrol egde and my engine is QUIET once it reaches operating temps. i almost thought my car had stalled on me once.
 
im pretty sure the only reason why toyota recommends a 20 weight in most of their newer cars is for the benefit of fuel economy. id take protection ovr the minimal gain in economy anyday tho.
 
I have the 07 Focus with the 2.0 duratech and use M1 5-30 and M1 5-30EP and the engine is very quiet. I am going to change it soon, but the 5-30 is it now with 9000 miles, and still as quiet as the day I changed oil.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
I have the 07 Focus with the 2.0 duratech and use M1 5-30 and M1 5-30EP and the engine is very quiet. I am going to change it soon, but the 5-30 is it now with 9000 miles, and still as quiet as the day I changed oil.


What's the OEM spec on the 07 Focus ?
 
Originally Posted By: ericthepig
Originally Posted By: tig1
I have the 07 Focus with the 2.0 duratech and use M1 5-30 and M1 5-30EP and the engine is very quiet. I am going to change it soon, but the 5-30 is it now with 9000 miles, and still as quiet as the day I changed oil.


What's the OEM spec on the 07 Focus ?


5-20.
 
Quote:
Anyone else notice this type of noise from a 4cyl running 0w20 or 5w20? It's not just Mazdas. Seems to be the new sound of the small 4-cyl. I'm wondering if most are perhaps running xxw20. (?)


I have noticed this to a small degree. 30 grades tend to make the Honda 2.4 a bit more quiet.

Running ASM in the 3, but may jump to a 30 grade just to see. Car is driven fairly hard.
 
2 things I first noticed when I started using 0w20 in my Mazda.

1) Cold startup valvetrain noise is non-existent. Oil pressure is instantaneous. The oil pressure light goes out before the starter has released. Engine seems to turn over easier/faster.

2) Once the engine is fully warmed up it does seem to run a little louder than when I ran PP 5w30. Its still an all around quiet engine but it was definitely quieter on the 30 weight.

With that said, I have been very impressed with M1 0w20 and I doubt I'll ever run anything else.

As for the "hollow cheap" sound, not really sure what that sounds like. Mazda's have always sounded great to me, as well as Honda's and even newer American 4 cyl's.
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I've had two 4-cyl Mazdas before this one (an '85 GLC, and an '88 323 - owned the 323 for about 15 yrs - sold last yr - so I'm starting to think I'm a Mazda guy - they do fit my body (behind the wheel) better than Hondas and Toyotas). Both the above ran 10w40 - and I would imagine even if they ran w20, I would still like their sound. Very nice.

And I realize these new 4-cyl are not "cheap" - they are very hi-tech. And I can't say that all 4-cyl sound this way. But I'm hearing it more frequently. Slightly high pitched, slightly hollow, slightly rattily (sp?). I haven't paid attention to how warm the oil is when I hear it - but it's only noticeable when reving the engine or accelerating. I really was disappointed when I first heard it - it simply sounds like what a cheap technology American made 4-cyl might have sounded like from 15 yrs ago (though I don't know how they sounded, but this sound would be my guess).

I was kind've relieved when I first heard another Japanese 4-cyl (non-Mazda) make the noise - I would've worried about these Mazda's (Ford influenced) otherwise.

Discerning it may be an age issue. If you're young, then perhaps this is a normal sounding 4-cyl. If your older, then you have grown used to the previous 4-cyl sounds (which trump these new engines big time). Perhaps it's another CAFE consequence - hollow rattly engines - thankfully a heavier oil appears to turn the clock back in this matter.
 
My post above shouldn't be taken as a slight on Ford - I know they make excellent engines. Though I'm not real big on the body cosmetics of their cars (their trucks are fine, but their cars are getting trumped by Chevy and all the Japanese makers (imo)). I suspect Mazda (Japan) designed the Mazda 6 and 3 bodies - very nice.
 
Try a Xw-30 next time and see if you like it better. I did and I am sticking with it.
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We ran two OCI's of M1 0w20 in my daughter's Yaris. Yeah, I noticed the engine sounded 'more mechanical' and a little louder, but the performance was still very good.

This current OCI is 2 quarts of M1 0w20 and 2 quarts of M1 0w30. Even my 20 year old daughter noticed a difference and said she like the feel of the 0w25 better.

This next OCI, we are moving to Castrol Syntec 5w20 and I am curious how it will 'feel' I understand that Castrol, in general, is at the thicker end of the numbers, so it will be interesting.

We did run an OCI of 5w20 in our 4Runner for a winter fill, but I have gone back to 5w30 and like it a lot better.
 
I plan on running a jug of M1 5w20 this winter... Have it left over from a recent change and didn't end up using it. I know the sound of my engine very well... Will be interesting to see if I notice an increase in noise. I plan on doing a UOA to to see if more noise creates more stress on the oil and/or engine.
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I have what I think is a pretty good theory about why some motor oils are noisy.
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First, in the 1980 -1990's I was using a 5W-30 syn-blend in my 87 Jetta (1.8l gas). Back then the syn-blends were Group I and PAO (with probably some esters mixed with the PAO). There is a road near where I live that winds down into the valley that has a 3 ft concrete divider about 1ft from the left lane. If you are driving on the road with your drivers window open, you can hear what type of noise your engine is making because the sound reflects off the concrete barrier. In the 1990's I was surprised how my engine made quite a "racket". It almost sounded like an engine with 400k miles on it instead of 40k miles. With the current Group II 5W-30's I now use, my engine is much quieter.

There are still some skeptics about this, but I think we've had just way too many accounts of noiser engines with certain oils to discount this effect, and I've experienced it myself. So what is going on here? I think the high noise factor of some oils has to do with the PAO/esters content in some of the lower viscosity grade synthetic motor oils.

One of the significant differences between Group II and PAO's oils is the pressure-viscosity coefficient, or the (CT) coefficient of traction -- basically how slippery an oil is in a sliding pressure regime. PAO's have a much lower CT than Group II mineral oils -- they're slipperier. But oil film thickness is also related to the CT of an oil. The higher the CT, the thicker the oil film. If we compared a 6.0 cSt GII and PAO, the GII will actually produce a thicker oil film in a high pressure sliding regime.

Quote:
Lubrication Technology.pdf … Film thickness is a function of viscosity, pressure, temperature, relative velocity, surface roughness, and other factors. All else being equal – geometry, velocity, load, and viscosity- some base oils will provide a thinner oil film. Mineral oils will provide the thickest film, followed by PAO, PAG, and esters [3, 5].


Also … Machine Lube " …A high coefficient of traction correlates well with thicker film formation, even under extreme and variable conditions. …"

If we list the CT of various oils, Group II have the highest CT and will produce the thickest oil film (GII is even higher than GI) …

Group II … … … … highest CT thickest oil film
Group I
Group III
PAO … … … … lowest CT thinnest oil film

There is also a good graph on page 7 of this article comparing the base oils …ZDDP Tech Brief "…when subjected to extreme pressure, oil's viscosity will increase as its molecules are forced into closer proximity to each other. Under extreme pressure, oil with a higher 'α' value (pressure viscosity coefficient CT) will have a thicker film due to the resulting viscosity increase…."

I should point out, and as the Lub Tech article relates, a mineral oil may not have the advantage of a thicker oil film over a PAO all the time. If we heat the 6.0 cSt GII and PAO oils up way past 100C, the Group II oil will thin more than the PAO because it has a lower VI. At some higher temperature the increased thinning of the GII may actually end up having a thinner oil film than the PAO because the viscosity has thinned much more than the PAO. But for practical purposes, I think we can assume that an equivalent GII will in most normal temperature instances produce a thicker oil film than a PAO.

Another factor to consider in the GII vs PAO oil film thickness are VII's (viscosity index improvers) and the fact that PAO's have better cold flow properties, so one can use a thicker base oil to make the POA based motor oil with less VII's. I'm going to assume that VII's are not really "that" slippery and will have a CT even much higher than the GII. So the addition of more VII's to a conventional based 10W-30 will raise the CT of the GII base oil even more than the PAO oil, leading to an even bigger gap in the CT for the GII oil over the PAO. For example, using some ballpark numbers, a 10W-30 GII based motor oil might start with 5.5 cSt base oils and a PAO might start around 8.0. We would add 2% VII's for the PAO and much more VII's (around 5%) for the GII to get them both to 11.0 cSt (30 weight range).

Since the 11.0 cSt blend of GII + VII's will likely have a higher CT advantage than the PAO + VII belnd than they originally started out with, this will help the GII based oil produce even a thicker oil film. These thicker oil films will buffer and quiet the metal/metal slapping of the camshaft, and perhaps other engine components like the bearings, which leads to a quieter engine. One might also consider that the big molecules of the VII's acting like coil springs, so they may provide some additional type of buffering effect where 2 metal surfaces are trying to contact each other.

Most of the noise complaints about oil that I've seen on this forum have to do with the thinner Mobil 1 oils like 0W-20, 5W-20 and 5W-30. Since these oils contain a healthy dose of PAO/esters, this probably contributes to a thinner oil film and more noise than the conventional GII based 5W-30's, or even the GIII based 5W-30's. I've heard people comment that when they stepped up to a 40 weight Mobil 1, the noise went away substantially, so even the higher viscosity PAO/ester based oils can get to a point where the film becomes thick enough for noise to no longer be an issue. This noise factor may also somewhat depend on the engine type, camshaft design, and bearing clearances of the particular engine -- in other words, some engines may be noisier with these synthetic oils, and some may not see much difference.

In summary, a high CT (coefficient of traction) Group II oil with a good dose of VII's will produce a high CT oil that will produce thicker oil films than oils that contain Group IV/V synthetics. In turn, some of the lower viscosity grade motor oils that contain a good portion of PAO/esters, produce thinner oil films that are capable of producing noisier engines. The thicker oils films produced by the GII oils in combination with VII's in many cases can provide better buffering of the engine metal/metal slapping noises, producing a quieter engine.
 
Drivebelt, excellent and informative write-up.

And it would explain (on various levels) why adding Mobil 5000 10w40 to the mix has significantly quieted my engine. It's grp II, it's thicker, and more VII.

Now to formulate my plan going forward, since I'd rather not have Mobil 5000 in my sump for a long OCI.
 
Any engine that had run "noisey" for any period of time has become an oil burner in my fleet. If a pricey oil fill doesnt have adequate "behind the piston" viscosity to prevent piston slap, I'll dump some, and spike it with some M1 4T, If what I buy is too gummy or thick, I'll spike the sump with some M1 5w-20(~6oz). Ne'er worked as well as the "right" oil for the engine, but saved me dumping a 30$ synthetic fill. Right now, my Yaris has 10W-30 valvoline synpower and doesnt like it. Too Thick. I do have some 0W-30 M1 AFE charteuse cap in the wings. Cant beat 22 bucks a 5Qt jug minus the 10 rebate.
 
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