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#1390176 - 03/02/09 10:11 AM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: demarpaint]
Steve S Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 18449
Loc: East of IGO
Good oil flow or not ,the air filter is more important to long engine life.
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Why do people post I want the best for my car,,, When there isn't anything that is the best on the car to begin with.

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#1390177 - 03/02/09 10:14 AM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
 Quote:
So you're saying that the flow restriction due to the engine itself (flow passages, etc) is much higher than what an oil filter can produce in terms of flow restriction? - unless of course the filter was highly clogged. I guess that makes some sense.


Side note: I've expressed this a few times ..make that many times ..and not too many people grasp the concept here. I obviously cannot express it in sensible terms. All conceptual views are integrated from observational data of real world testing with remote filters with individual gauges above and below the filter ..and/or a differential gauge. While I may not be able to articulate the physical events properly, they are what they are. If you can manage to read into it a bit ..massage it for your particular frame of reference, you may be able to have the same light bulb go off. You may even be able to expand and augment the interpretation/expression into more sensible terms.

All "truths" are generic. There will always be exceptions for those who operate in/on fringe environments or with some exotic/high tech engines. [/end disclaimer/qualifier]

The engine is by far the most restrictive element that the oil flow sees. It's what develops your pressure ..or back pressure. The oil filter is a slight intermediate choke to flow. As long as your pump is not in relief, then it is no more than a "rapids" ..actually, it's probably a "slow down" ..but the same concept applies. SAME FLOW, different velocity. What else can possibly occur with a positive displacement pump (assuming 100% sensible efficiency for discussion's sake) where 100% of the sensible flow goes to the engine?? The filter, and all intermediate restrictions (galleries ..passages ..bearings ..cams ..lifters) all collectively produce pressure ELEVATIONS back to the pump. It's what happens when oil molecules slam up against immovable objects and start playing bumper cars with each other soon after start up.

If the oil pump doesn't reach the relief point threshold ..then the filter is but one minor velocity change in an otherwise irresistible fluid flow. IT'S GOT NOWHERE ELSE TO GO. The filter must fall into a subordinate resistance of the total resistance of the fluid circuit.

Most view "flow" like we do faucets and electrical outlets. A supplied pressure with variable flow based on resistance. What we have in a non-pump relief scenario is:

How much oil is passing through a 2" pipe @ 5gpm?
How much oil is passing through a .5" pipe @ 5gpm?

A: 5gpm. The difference is just the velocity and the "back pressure" developed.

Now when we open the relief valve, the physics change. Now you are at an attenuated pressure over a given resistance. The filter is the division that sees this differential of developed pressure. It sees the supplied pressure on the pump side, and the developed "back pressure" from the engine based on the reduced flow going to it. The differential pressure is the difference between the sum of the total flow/output and the net flow to the engine.

The bypass valve limits the max resistance that the filter can present to the supply in the relief event.

Two important distinctions:

The bypass valve is there to prevent oil starvation to the engine during pump relief events.

The bypass valve setting is there to limit stress on the media (some exceptions apply).

Now lets take on the difference between "free flowing" and "restrictive" filters.

XYZ filter is "tight". It has a 10psi bypass valve setting.

ABC filter is loose. It also has a 10 psi bypass valve setting.

In pump relief, what is either filter's maximum resistance presented to flow?

Suppose XYZ hits 10 PSID
Suppose ABC only hits 7 PSID.

How much difference does "free flowing" vs. "tight" mean??



When does a bypass open?

A bypass opens (we're talking generically here) when you're in transition. Perhaps when you're in transition from dead still cold start, with empty galleries ..and a high volume void to fill before you develop (our infamous) "back pressure".

It can also occur when you're flat shifting @ 7000 rpm and the oil cannot physically stop on a dime. The relief is there to "bleed off" the transitional excess output. Between the relief and the bypass valve you have slack in an otherwise solid fluid train.

The bypass may also open when you start a cold engine with heavy oil. That static column of oil just doesn't want to move from ZERO to whatever instantaneously. So the pump spins its tires applying max pressure but producing little flow. This produces the maximum pressure on the pump side of the filter, but the least flow to the engine ..and limited "back pressure". As the train gets moving, the flow proportions more and more to the engine ..and the differential read across the filter ..evaporates.

Now this hasn't dealt with filter loading. Filter loading will elongate and exacerbate these transitions. Viscosity becomes a more reactive component in the equation(s). So, while you may not reach the bypass threshold of the filter after any relief event is over, you may see elevated PSID due to viscosity. But it is still a pressure elevation toward the supply and NOT a reduction in flow.

Did anyone hang in there this far??
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#1390184 - 03/02/09 10:20 AM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: Gary Allan]
Nyquist Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 896
Loc: Iowa
Continue. I love fluid dynamics! \:\!
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2008 Chevy Cobalt 2.2L (Ecotec) Mobil 1 0w30 w/ ACDelco

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#1390206 - 03/02/09 10:49 AM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: Nyquist]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
Now is the point where I field objections.

I love fluid dynamics too. I really wish I had studied it.
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#1390208 - 03/02/09 10:51 AM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: Gary Allan]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5392
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
I took two semesters of it in school, and a laminar fluid shear class. That, and two semesters of thermodynamics will drive a man to drinkin' ...


Edited by dnewton3 (03/02/09 10:52 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#1390368 - 03/02/09 02:20 PM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: dnewton3]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
I always wondered why I only socially drank.
The price of enlightenment \:\(








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#1390498 - 03/02/09 04:59 PM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: Gary Allan]
Nyquist Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 896
Loc: Iowa
Turbulent mixing and vorticity are where it gets really interesting and scary. As my professor always said "'Tis so simple."

It was fun to finish the homework in that class and then crack open a few barley pops/sodas.
_________________________
2011 Chevy Equinox 2.4L (Ecotec SIDI) QSUD 5w30 w/ ACDelco
2008 Chevy Cobalt 2.2L (Ecotec) Mobil 1 0w30 w/ ACDelco

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#1390511 - 03/02/09 05:10 PM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The bypass valve limits the max resistance that the filter can present to the supply in the relief event.

Two important distinctions:

The bypass valve is there to prevent oil starvation to the engine during pump relief events.

The bypass valve setting is there to limit stress on the media (some exceptions apply).


As I showed in my original post, the Purolator PureOne has the by-pass relief valve set somewhat higher than the WIX/NAPA filter for the same car application.

To me, this means a few things:
A) The Purolator's media can take more delta pressure across it.
B) The Purolator is probably more restrictive (due to it's higher filtering capability). Purolator has set the by-pass valve at a higher setting so the added flow resistance doesn't trigger unwarranted by-pass events.
C) There should be less by-pass (unfiltered oil) events occurring on the PureOne, unless the added by-pass relief setting (6~7 psi over the WIX) is lost due to the added flow restriction.

If the by-pass relief setting is not matched to the flow restriction characteristics of the filter, then the by-pass will obviously open much more than it really should.

 Originally Posted By: SuperBusa

I've heard that the PureOne filter efficiency is very high, and as such, may mean that it is also somewhat restrictive to oil flow.

I was looking at the following by-pass relief valve specs for the two oil filters for my car's application:

WIX 51356 (same as NAPA Gold 1356) spec says: 8-11 psi.

Purolator PL14610 spec says: 14-18 psi.
(The regular Purolator L14610 has the same spec, even though the regular L14610 doesn't have the higher filter efficiency.



Edited by SuperBusa (03/02/09 05:11 PM)
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#1390516 - 03/02/09 05:12 PM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: SuperBusa]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
Forgot to ask ... has anyone seen filtering beta data for the PureOne? I'm sure it's good, but I'd like to see numbers if there are out there.


Edited by SuperBusa (03/02/09 05:13 PM)
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#1390523 - 03/02/09 05:18 PM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: SuperBusa]
Steve S Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 18449
Loc: East of IGO
_________________________
Why do people post I want the best for my car,,, When there isn't anything that is the best on the car to begin with.

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#1390548 - 03/02/09 05:45 PM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: Steve S]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Steve S


In Post #11 of the above link, they analyze the PureOne as follows:

-----------------------
Purolator PureOne PL34631

Cost $4.99 -- Meijer
ADBV material: Silicon
Spring type: leaf
Intake area: 0.440 sq/in (12 of 12)
Filter area: 330 sq/in; 62 pleats (10 of 12)
Total Weight: 470 grams (10 of 12)
Filter and endcap weight: 5 oz (5-10 of 12)
Physical Rating: 31 (11 of 12)
Average pore size: 24 µm (12 of 12)
Smallest pore size: 11 µm (12 of 12)

Oil flow @ 10psi: 4.7 oz per minute (2 of 12)
-----------------------

Flow at 10 psi is only 4.7 oz per minute ... this equates to only 0.0367 GPM (128 oz/gal), which is a trickle! I highly suspect this data. It doesn't say what viscosity the oil was at, but the ACDelco chart says the oil temp was 5W-30 at 34 deg F, so pretty viscous I'd think.

This isn't even close to the ACDelco "Flow vs. Pressure" chart shown on page 1 of this thread.

Something doesn't add up.

 Originally Posted By: chevrofreak



Edited by SuperBusa (03/02/09 05:52 PM)
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#1390654 - 03/02/09 07:59 PM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
(pinching bridge of nose with head slightly down - glasses off)


(sigh)

G’Kar is lecturing his followers on the evils of being too serious, as if that will prove that they are better than everyone else, more enlightened. They can’t be free until they learn to laugh at themselves, and from laughter comes wisdom. G’Kar asks for the next question. A follower throws a couple of big ones at him:

Narn: “What is truth? And what is God?”

G’Kar: “You don’t really want an answer to that question.”

Narn: “Yes, I do. Please.”

G’Kar: “If I take a lamp and shine it toward a wall, a bright spot will appear on the wall. The lamp is our search for truth, for understanding. Too often, we assume that the light on the wall is God. But the light is not the goal of the search. It is the result of the search. The more intense the search, the brighter the light on the wall. The brighter the light on the wall, the greater the sense of revelation upon seeing it.”

The followers are not following this at all. G’Kar has them all confounded. Dr. Franklin stands in the background smiling at their confusion.

G’Kar: “Similarly, someone who does not search, who does not bring a lantern with him…sees nothing. (He sighs in frustration) What we perceive as God is the byproduct of our search for God. It may simply be an appreciation of the light, pure and unblemished, not understanding that it comes from us. Sometimes we stand in front of the light and assume that we are the center of the universe. God looks astonishingly like we do. Or we turn to look at our shadow and assume that all is darkness. If we allow ourselves to get in the way, we defeat the purpose, which is to use the light of our search to illuminate the wall in all its beauty…and all its flaws…and in so doing better understand the world around us.”

Narn: “Ah…yes…but… What is truth? And what is God?”

G’Kar laughs. At this rate, they’re never going to get it. This time G’Kar answers more simply.

G’Kar: “Truth is a river, and God is the mouth of the river.”

The room is filled with murmurs of understanding. Franklin smiles and gives G’Kar a sympathetic shrug.
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#1390822 - 03/02/09 10:01 PM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: Gary Allan]
mimelio Offline


Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 133
Loc: New York
2004 test at http://www.offshoreonly.com...I understand that they changed several things with Pure One since then... I guess it will alway be an argument my brand is better than yours because.....

That test rated
Fram Oil flow @ 10psi: 4.0 oz per minute
Wix Oil flow @ 10psi: 5.3 oz per minute
K&N Oil flow @ 10psi: 13.2 oz per minute (that is basically a M1)


But remember that was outboard motor oil filters...

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#1390842 - 03/02/09 10:14 PM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


Narn: “Ah…yes…but… What is truth? And what is God?”

G’Kar laughs. At this rate, they’re never going to get it. This time G’Kar answers more simply.

G’Kar: “Truth is a river, and God is the mouth of the river.”

The room is filled with murmurs of understanding. Franklin smiles and gives G’Kar a sympathetic shrug.


You can measure pressure, flow rate, delta pressure, filtration efficiency, etc ... but you can't measure God. ;\)
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#1390847 - 03/02/09 10:16 PM Re: Wix vs. PureOne - Flow Restriction [Re: mimelio]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: mimelio
2004 test at http://www.offshoreonly.com...I understand that they changed several things with Pure One since then... I guess it will alway be an argument my brand is better than yours because.....

That test rated
Fram Oil flow @ 10psi: 4.0 oz per minute
Wix Oil flow @ 10psi: 5.3 oz per minute
K&N Oil flow @ 10psi: 13.2 oz per minute (that is basically a M1)

But remember that was outboard motor oil filters...


I remember this filter study ... the flow rate numbers were all ridiculously low for most of the filters tested. I emailed ACDelco because their Ultragaurd was in the mix. Their response was that the testing was flawed. I believe it. A motor would fry itself if it only received a few ounces of oil per minute flow rate at a delta P across the filter where most will start going into by-pass mode.

WIX rates its 51356 (same as NAPA 1356) filter for instance at 7 to 9 GPM, but doesn't stipulate at what delta P or oil viscosity - I'm assuming at a delta P less than the by-pass valve setting of 11 psi (max) - or it could be at 50 PSID as shown in the ACDelco chart. Maybe there is some ridiculously high PSID that these filter manufactured rate the flow rate at to make them look good.(?) At any rate, it's a far cry from 5.3 oz/min. LOL.


Edited by SuperBusa (03/02/09 10:27 PM)
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