Going to ditch 5w20 and switch to 5w30

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Liquid_Turbo

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Hi guys,

Over at the civic forums many threads are about

http://www.corforums.com/smf/index.p...9&topic=4656.0
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c335/jjgarris7/car stuff/IMG_2724.jpg

Some people were speculating that the cause of these issues is because of the 5w20 oil specification.. and some have used 5w30 since having their cams replaced, and apparently no problems.

The engine's spec-d for 5w20, I've been using 0w20 mostly.., with a bit of oil consumption...but I think I am going to try PP 5w30 after all the good things I've read on this board.
 
I don't think this is an oil issue. From what i see, if this is a chronic problem, this is a cam problem. Poor heat treating, soft cam, etc. Oil doesn't cause this.
 
There are millions of different engines on 5w20. You would see cam failures across the board on multiple platforms if it were oil.
 
Originally Posted By: PT1
There are millions of different engines on 5w20. You would see cam failures across the board on multiple platforms if it were oil.


True, but it doesn't mean that a particular engine could have been spec'd incorrectly for it..
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
I don't think this is an oil issue. From what i see, if this is a chronic problem, this is a cam problem. Poor heat treating, soft cam, etc. Oil doesn't cause this.


I'm leaning towards this as well. Would you think that switching to a heavier weight mitigate any of these problems?
 
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
True, but it doesn't mean that a particular engine could have been spec'd incorrectly for it..


i think you're on to something, and yes you usually see decreasing wear with increasing visc and 5w-30 is not really a thick oil
 
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I've been concerned about the wear pattern on the cam visible through the oil add port on Accord 4cyl as well. My 5-20 supply has been used up and switching to 5-30 next

Steve
 
Looking at that picture, I see uniform wear and a spall. The spall appears to be surface-initiated. It appears that it wore down and then spalled.

Was this engine altered with stiffer springs? This could explain the wear pattern and spalling. The cam would need to be metallurgically examined for microstructure decomposition from Hertzian stresses which could verify this condition.

Like I tell my clients, you can't jump to conclusions and go to a fix without understanding the root cause of the problem. The problem could be a metallurgically deficient camshaft (I've seen plenty), poor oil feed (I've seen that), or a poor engine design that is overstressing the cam. Changing the oil grade will not solve an overstress condition. We can only speculate.
 
Originally Posted By: steve20
I've been concerned about the wear pattern on the cam visible through the oil add port on Accord 4cyl as well. My 5-20 supply has been used up and switching to 5-30 next

Steve


How much mileage do you have on your Accord, is yours the K24 engine?
 
The 09 corolla has an issue with oil consumption while using 0/5w20. Toyotas TSB solution was to detune the VVT-I resulting is much less oil consumption, but also less power and lowered fuel economy. Instead of getting the TSB flash, the issue goes away when you switch to 5w30 and you get to keep all your power & fuel economy, so I think its entirely possible.

As a side note North America is the only area where 5w20 is spec'd, everywhere else 30wt and 40wt, coincidently no other area of the world has the oil consumption or a TSB to address it.
 
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Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
The 09 corolla has an issue with oil consumption while using 0/5w20. Toyotas TSB solution was to detune the VVT-I resulting is much less oil consumption, but also less power and lowered fuel economy. Instead of getting the TSB flash, the issue goes away when you switch to 5w30 and you get to keep all your power & fuel economy, so I think its entirely possible.

As a side note North America is the only area where 5w20 is spec'd, everywhere else 30wt and 40wt, coincidently no other area of the world has the oil consumption or a TSB to address it.


I heard about that. That's pretty crazy how Toyota would rather reflash to keep on using 5w20, than to simply spec 5w30 and solve all the problems that way. Perhaps more fuel to the fire for CAFE logic?
 
I studied the ZDDP issue with 'new' cams at break-in and this failure mode has a similiar appearance (pitting but yours is sever). Obviously this is well past break in.

As I understand some phosphorous treatment is used to facilitate break-in. If new engine build then high ZDDP break-in additive also recommended by cam guys.

I would guess bad cams, not oil unless not to Honda spec (?) or improper OCI.
 
I was aware of this on the RSX Base when I had an '06. No real conclusions came about from what I read on clubrsx.com. I kept 30 weight in mine, fwiw. Now I have a 2.4l so...

Definately another chink in Honda's armour, as well as the 6-sp syncro grind from the Type-S. ftr- my car had a LOT of body issues.
 
This is not a new problem with a Honda engine. Major rocker and cam wear has also been an issue with some H22's. Not common, but more than a few instances, all with proper valve lash. OEM and aftermarket cams/valvetrain. In this motor it's alwaysthe vtec rocker and lobe on the exhaust side. It's been an issue only the last few years. Many have speculated it's a problem with SM oils and the lack of ZDDP. I'm afraid mine are starting to show some wear as well.

One example, the intake side of the head doesn't have the oil staining. Amsoil S2K 0W-30 was used at the time:
DSC05247.jpg

DSC05246.jpg

DSC05242.jpg


This is one that was caught early:
attachment.php
 
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
The 09 corolla has an issue with oil consumption while using 0/5w20. Toyotas TSB solution was to detune the VVT-I resulting is much less oil consumption, but also less power and lowered fuel economy. Instead of getting the TSB flash, the issue goes away when you switch to 5w30 and you get to keep all your power & fuel economy, so I think its entirely possible.

As a side note North America is the only area where 5w20 is spec'd, everywhere else 30wt and 40wt, coincidently no other area of the world has the oil consumption or a TSB to address it.


Ah...I knew it! The 1ZZ-FE in my Prizm burned or consumed at least a quart every 3000 miles. This with 5w30 Grp III syn. It also did this with conventional. I figured a good quality syn with a higer flashpoint than conventional would cure the problem. Alas it did not. I always wondered how this particular engine would handle 5w20. Now I have an idea. I would rather run a syn 5w30 than flash the motor and loose power any day!
 
Those look like hardenable cast iron cams. It's old technology, and a cheap way to make camshafts. I was heavily involved with this design when I worked at Chrysler back in the 80s.

The material is designed to have small amounts of carbide develop in the bulk material during solidification... just enough to give it wear resistance, but not so much that it would be too difficult to machine. This is probably the lowest on the design list for wear resistance. Back then Chrysler had problems with cold oil flow during startup in one engine, and had problem with premature wear on the cams. Since then, most manufacturers have gone with new camshaft designs... hardened powder metal lobes, electron beam remelting (hardening) of the surface, and induction hardening.

The link mentioned a systematic problem with the #4 intake lobe. I would look at the oil flow circuit for this engine, and see if this matches the last of the camshaft lobes to get oil.
 
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