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#1315240 - 12/18/08 08:16 AM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: Tom NJ]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 28963
Loc: NJ
http://www.oilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=227&relatedbookgroup=OilAnalysis

I agree Johnny. All I was pointing out is that Ashland is not some fly by night company selling snake oil. They have the facilities to run ASTM tests, as does Shell/XOM/CVX etc.


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#1315255 - 12/18/08 08:28 AM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: Johnny]
bulwnkl Offline


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1395
Loc: Arizona
 Originally Posted By: Johnny
Well, that's a pretty good advertising, promotional video but don't think for a minute that Valvoline is the only oil company that does this. Shell's West Hollow Research Lab in Southwest Houston is 5 to 10 times the size of what Valvoline has. This is where Shell test and formulates it's oils for every car known to man, every large diesel engine there is, all outboard engines, motorcycle engines, and even outdoor power equipment. They have more engine test stands than most of the engine manufactures do. Then you can go to Exxon/Mobils Research Lab in Fairfax, VA., same thing, or Chevron's Research Lab outside of San Francisco, or the ConocoPhillips Research Lab in Bartelsville, OK. Heck, to listen to Valvoline you would think they were the only ones that knew how to formulate oil. Oh and by the way, they were not the first one to make a multi-vis oil.

There, rant over. I hate marketing B.S. and I can spot it a mile away.


I agree, and thank you for grounding us a bit, Johnny. Sadly, that makes it all the more disappointing (frankly suspicious in my mind) that XOM's product was tested out of spec. XOM has the facilities, talent, and resources to know exactly how their product performs at all times.
_________________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." --Gerald Ford

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#1315271 - 12/18/08 08:48 AM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: bulwnkl]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 28963
Loc: NJ
 Quote:
XOM has the facilities, talent, and resources to know exactly how their product performs at all times.


 Quote:
It employs an array of analytical techniques including liquid chromatography (LC), gel permeation chromatography (GPC), gas chromatography (GC), GC/mass spectroscopy (GC/MS), LC/MS, fourier transform infrared spectroscopy (FTIR), FTIR/microscopy, GC/FTIR/MS, X-ray diffraction, DC-arc emission spectroscopy (solids), fluorescence spectroscopy, optical microscopy and scanning electron microscopy/energy dispersive spectrometry (SEM/EDS). In addition, the lab has the capability to run many standard ASTM bench tests designed to measure properties and performance of petroleum products, but the advanced analytical capabilities are what really set Paulsboro MTS apart.

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#1315282 - 12/18/08 08:58 AM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: buster]
tmorris1 Offline


Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 2028
Loc: MN
Who cares about the marketing? All companies do it. I have gotten better UOAs from PP and Synpower than M1. We should be glad that Valvoline is putting out a good product for a decent price. With all the rebates that Valvoline offers, I don't think that I have payed full price for an oil change for years, and I get as good or better results than when I was using M1.

It was kind of funny how everyone always wrote off the high iron in M1 samples, but with any other product we would never hear the end of it. I don't have a horse in either race, but I am glad that other companies are putting out good products. The success of M1 has caused other companies to step up...


Edited by tmorris1 (12/18/08 08:59 AM)

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#1315387 - 12/18/08 10:52 AM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: Tom NJ]
gogozy Offline


Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 625
Loc: GTA, Ontario, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=ilsac+license+procedure&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-305&u=www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/1509_16thedition042007.pdf&w=ilsac+license+procedure+procedures&d=c9zHoUfiR4nb&icp=1&.intl=us

Tom NJ

thanks for the link, but now i am lost...

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#1315388 - 12/18/08 10:52 AM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: bulwnkl]
gogozy Offline


Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 625
Loc: GTA, Ontario, Canada
 Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
 Originally Posted By: Johnny
Well, that's a pretty good advertising, promotional video but don't think for a minute that Valvoline is the only oil company that does this. Shell's West Hollow Research Lab in Southwest Houston is 5 to 10 times the size of what Valvoline has. This is where Shell test and formulates it's oils for every car known to man, every large diesel engine there is, all outboard engines, motorcycle engines, and even outdoor power equipment. They have more engine test stands than most of the engine manufactures do. Then you can go to Exxon/Mobils Research Lab in Fairfax, VA., same thing, or Chevron's Research Lab outside of San Francisco, or the ConocoPhillips Research Lab in Bartelsville, OK. Heck, to listen to Valvoline you would think they were the only ones that knew how to formulate oil. Oh and by the way, they were not the first one to make a multi-vis oil.

There, rant over. I hate marketing B.S. and I can spot it a mile away.


I agree, and thank you for grounding us a bit, Johnny. Sadly, that makes it all the more disappointing (frankly suspicious in my mind) that XOM's product was tested out of spec. XOM has the facilities, talent, and resources to know exactly how their product performs at all times.

+1

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#1315436 - 12/18/08 11:43 AM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: gogozy]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 28963
Loc: NJ
The API won't revoke a license immediately after hearing about a non compliance issue. Takes a lot of time/testing. Mobil claiming their oils still meet the API spec means nothing to me. I personally believe they dropped the ball this time. The accusation also comes from a credible source (Ashland) IMO.

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#1315523 - 12/18/08 12:58 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: buster]
rg200amp Offline


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 3127
Loc: Phila,PA
Do we have a contact with API? I tried to find an email or contact us for the API but i did not find anything. (I did not look long, at work)
_________________________
// 2013 Subaru WRX //
SOLD:
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-04 Lincoln LS
-01 Ford F250
-04 Mazda Rx-8
-97 Jeep Wrangler
-97 BMW M3
-97 Nissan Maxima


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#1315537 - 12/18/08 01:24 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: crinkles]
FrankN4 Offline


Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1093
Loc: Kentucky
 Originally Posted By: crinkles
 Originally Posted By: FrankN4
I was talking with a legal type(family) earlier and he said every independent lab in the country could show Mobil 1(or anyone else) failed or passed and none of it would be allowed in any US court. Only test done by the licensing agency meant anything. Tests done by and "RESULTS REPORTED" by a competitor would make the competitor liable if they stated test results as authoritative unless they were able to get the licensing agency to do the actual testing and "REPORTING". That is, they could report their many repeated results to the licensing agency and demand, but not mandate, an agency test. That is like all you folk that have base oil analyzed by various folk that have a decent chemistry lab and have to keep your mouth shut.(tough...aint it)

I know this is lawyer talk, but it is lawyers that will handle the situation. He said Ashland was MUCH, MUCH more at risk for legal action than Mobil. Mobil would most likely prove their API license status and go about business. Ashland was most likely counting on that, but look at the free advertisement. A calculated risk.


I doubt that only the licensing lab could do the tests. Labs are certified for certain tests they apply accreditation for. If the national certifying body OK's any lab to do that test and they have certification to do that specific test, it is a valid test and should be legal.


I had coffee with my legal relative. He said that any lab that was licensed by API, if they did such, could perform the test, BUT, API, the authorizing body, would have to request and authorize the test or in the eyes of the law it did not exist. If every lab, university chemistry department, or whatever in the US said they tested and Mobil or whoever failed, in the eyes of the law those test are meaningless. Only API can say WE tested and THEY passed/failed.

I am not an attorney nor do I portray one on television.
_________________________
Actually, I never was as good as I used to be.

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#1315538 - 12/18/08 01:25 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: rg200amp]
HondaMan Offline


Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 671
Loc: Texas
Well... Redline is not on an API list, if we're gonna run a non-conforming oil, might as well be running something really tricky :)

Funny how the following phrase is thrown around the board so much:
"Any modern API SM oil will do really well."

Ooooops guess that leaves out M1 5W-30 ;\)

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#1315544 - 12/18/08 01:30 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: FrankN4]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 20181
Loc: NY
 Originally Posted By: FrankN4


I am not an attorney nor do I portray one on television.


And here I thought you stared in Jag

Frank D
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops!


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#1315554 - 12/18/08 01:37 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: HondaMan]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 28963
Loc: NJ
API does perform random sampling to keep an eye on quality control. As much as people knock the API, once you venture outside of it, you don't know what you are receiving. It can work both ways too, as superior oils could potentially be made. $45,000 for a IIIG piston is a lot of $, so it hurts the little guys.

Just think of how many other oils on the market that are not API licensed may or may not pass the Seq IVA for API SM. It's there for a reason. The irony of all this is that it's XOM.

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#1315555 - 12/18/08 01:38 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: HondaMan]
rg200amp Offline


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 3127
Loc: Phila,PA
 Originally Posted By: HondaMan
Well... Redline is not on an API list, if we're gonna run a non-conforming oil, might as well be running something really tricky :)

Funny how the following phrase is thrown around the board so much:
"Any modern API SM oil will do really well."

Ooooops guess that leaves out M1 5W-30 ;\)


There are oils that do not carry a API Sprcs. Amsoil is one. Just because they do not hold the API Spec does not mean there bad oils. They can be just as good, if not better than others that do hold the Specs.

The point here is: Mobil 1 is sold as a oil that MEETs and HAS the API Specs. And it is used as OEM oil because of that.

So we will see what happens. \:\!
_________________________
// 2013 Subaru WRX //
SOLD:
-11 Volkswagen Jetta
-04 Lincoln LS
-01 Ford F250
-04 Mazda Rx-8
-97 Jeep Wrangler
-97 BMW M3
-97 Nissan Maxima


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#1315588 - 12/18/08 02:07 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: bulwnkl]
Geonerd Offline


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 648
Loc: Aridzona
 Originally Posted By: bulwnkl


I agree, and thank you for grounding us a bit, Johnny. Sadly, that makes it all the more disappointing (frankly suspicious in my mind) that XOM's product was tested out of spec. XOM has the facilities, talent, and resources to know exactly how their product performs at all times.


Just remember,
Dilbert is REAL! Ego and stupidity are universal!

In a big corporation like that, there's always room for some pointy-haired manager to come along and screw things up. It's entirely possible that the remains of half a dozen engineering failure reports are sitting in some middle-manager's shredder, all so he can show an improvement in his division's profit margin.
_________________________
92 Accord Wagon - The White Whale! 225K.
Oil du jour: Valvoline 10w-30 SM Dino, Pure One oil filter. 6K OCI. 35 MPG with sane hypermiling.

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#1315712 - 12/18/08 03:31 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: buster]
Brian Barnhart Offline


Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 559
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: buster
Just think of how many other oils on the market that are not API licensed may or may not pass the Seq IVA for API SM. It's there for a reason...

However, it's beginning to look like conformance to API licensing is based chiefly on the honor system. I'd say the "reason" is starting to shear.

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