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#130244 - 04/20/05 08:14 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
JohnBrowning Offline


Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 9448
Loc: USA
quote:
Never leave any potential market unexplored. People walk in droves into Wally World like cattle to buy junk.

Garry Allan, I laughed so hard at the above!!! [LOL!]

jthorner, I will let you use the search function it is on here. Have one of the "Green Guru's" point you in the right direction. Another way of answere it though would to ask you how do we know it is not 3.6? I would also re-ask you or any one to show me a 5W20 or 0W20 with and HTHS of 3.6? I love how none and mean none of the thin oil people every answere any of my questions.

1) Were is the proof of Cavitaion and starvation with a 40Wt. oil at ambient temps of 70F?
2) Where is the proof of advantage of year round use of a low HTHS oil over higher HTHS oils.
3) What is gained by useing a 0W20 over a 0W30 or 0W40 especialy as it pertains to cold start pumpabilityand flow year round not just at artic extreme?
4) Where is the historical evidence of long term durability?
5) Why should someone use a 20Wt. off application where not at all recomended?
6) Why is XW20 only recomended in N.America by Ford,Honda and DC?
7) What is wrong with useing an ambient tempature / viscosity chart to pick the aprop. oil for an application?
8) Why does every one ignore the memo driectly from Ford stateing that initialy the move to a 5W20 was primarily for fuel economy?
9) Why is it that people always forget that while I do not like 20Wt.'s at all I do not have a problem with them being used in vechiles that recomends them.
10) Why do people find it so opjectionable that I would recomend they use a 20Wt. with the highest HTHS they can find? Which to the best of my knoldge is Redline 5W20 at an HTHS of 3.3.
11) Why is it that people want to recomend an oil that has no historical evidence for secsess in off application usuages.
12) Why do the negative 20Wt. UOA in off application usuages go ignored? I belive it was Tooslick that tried a 20Wt. in his well documented Tacoma and had a bad UOA!

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#130245 - 04/20/05 08:19 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
Drew99GT Online   happy


Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 20261
Loc: Colorado Springs
quote:
Originally posted by moribundman:
[Off Topic!]
quote:
I know you are but what am I [Big Grin] [Patriot] [Canada]
Well, which anthem do you sing before you make a post? [Wink]
[Off Topic!] Poland's

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#130246 - 04/20/05 08:22 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8759
Loc: SC
quote:
Originally posted by jthorner:
quote:
GC has an HTHS of 3.6
Um, how do we know that? I have never been able to find any published specifications for the Made in Germany version of Castrol USA's 0W-30 oil. The Castrol USA product data sheet says nothing about HTHS, though it does say that Castrol Syntec 0W-30 meets ACEA A1/A3 whilst the Syntec 5W-30 is an A1/A5 product.

Some people have speculated that this might be the same oil as European SLX, but others say that isn't true.

Where does this 3.6 number come from?

John

From the data sheet that Castrol in Germany sent me and that I posted on here way back when we first started seeing GC on the shelves.

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#130247 - 04/20/05 08:30 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4786
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
the original "suspect" Castrol Formula SLX 0w-30 (GC) oil released here in OZ in 1996 had a HTHS vis of 3.5cP

Other data;
KV@100C = 11.6cSt
KV@40C = 65cSt
CCS@-30C = 3150cP
Pour point = -57C
TBN = 8

Regards
Doug

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#130248 - 04/20/05 09:42 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
quote:
1) Were is the proof of Cavitaion and starvation with a 40Wt. oil at ambient temps of 70F?
Well, I didn't see any cavitation or starvation with 20w-50 after an overnight 32F start @ 41F in my filter bypass valve test. Now I could surely see differences ..but my engine suffered no more than putting out the required hp to pump it. [I dont know]

quote:
5) Why should someone use a 20Wt. off application where not at all recomended?
Same reason I put 20w-50 in a minivan ..to buck convention and maybe prove a point. [I dont know]

I am, btw, going to dump my 20w-50 after a fuel economy long run and put in MC 5w-20 for the summer ..just to see what happens [Eek!] (cue the odd music that seemed to come in from nowhere and for no apparent reason in "Last Tango in Paris") I'm glad that I have about 20 quarts of the stuff ..most of it I bought for $0.50 [Big Grin]

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#130249 - 04/20/05 07:45 PM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
1sttruck Offline


Registered: 03/20/04
Posts: 4378
Loc: Camas, WA
Adding to Browning's points...

1. 5W20 is used because of tighter clearances..... no, as the same engines seem to use heavier oils outside of the US. This is an important point as 'tighter clearances' is a design attribute which if true would REQUIRE thinner oil, but since it's not they don't except in the US.

2. 5W20 oil is needed for the higher revving engines....no, as car engines tend to be revved much higher for longer periods in places like Germany, where they tend to use the thicker stuff. Motorcycles rev to limits that few cars see, and they also use the thicker stuff.

5W20 is used in racing, proving it's durability....no, racing engines are pretty much a consumable in a big buck operation, that's why thicker oils are often used in owner owned races like rallys and such, where engines need to last. Delvac 1 seems to be common solution for wear in small buck racing.

5W20 was developed to produce better engine life.....no, and 5W20 advocates really need to work on this one, the Ford TSB specifically states that it was being used for fuel economy reasons.

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#130250 - 04/20/05 10:50 PM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
427Z06 Offline


Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
quote:
Originally posted by 1sttruck:


1. 5W20 is used because of tighter clearances..... no, as the same engines seem to use heavier oils outside of the US. This is an important point as 'tighter clearances' is a design attribute which if true would REQUIRE thinner oil, but since it's not they don't except in the US.


2. 5W20 oil is needed for the higher revving engines....no, as car engines tend to be revved much higher for longer periods in places like Germany, where they tend to use the thicker stuff. Motorcycles rev to limits that few cars see, and they also use the thicker stuff.


3. 5W20 is used in racing, proving it's durability....no, racing engines are pretty much a consumable in a big buck operation, that's why thicker oils are often used in owner owned races like rallys and such, where engines need to last. Delvac 1 seems to be common solution for wear in small buck racing


4. 5W20 was developed to produce better engine life.....no, and 5W20 advocates really need to work on this one, the Ford TSB specifically states that it was being used for fuel economy reasons.

I may as well pick a side and jump in. [Smile]

1. Manufacturing precision/accuracy has improved over the years which in effect has tightened the clearances. Tighter clearances may or may not require thinner oil. Until it's thoroughly tested in the applicable engine and environment, it's hard to predict what is required vs what works perfectly well.

2. Heat, engine design are bigger factors than strictly RPM. WOT or near WOT on the Autobahn generates very high oil temps. Motorcycle engines are quite a bit different in design than the typical passenger car engine, so it's apples and oranges. What's the viscosity of oil in jet turbine engines spinning at 100,000 RPM?

3. Extrapolating what's done in racing to help in your oil viscosity selection for the street is always ripe with folly unless you can actually race your car on the street under the identical conditions.

4. 5w20 may have been developed to enhance fuel economy, but the other requirement you thick heads leave out is that it was spec-ed to provide the same or better lubrication ability in engines recommending it use.

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#130251 - 04/21/05 12:51 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
1sttruck Offline


Registered: 03/20/04
Posts: 4378
Loc: Camas, WA
427Z06 said

"1. Manufacturing precision/accuracy has improved over the years which in effect has tightened the clearances. Tighter clearances may or may not require thinner oil. Until it's thoroughly tested in the applicable engine and environment, it's hard to predict what is required vs what works perfectly well."

The point is that '5w20 is required because of tighter clearances' is false, otherwise the same engines with the same clearances being used in other parts of the world would also be REQUIRED to use 5w20. 5w20 is not required to be used, and in fact other, heavier oils appear to be used in other parts of the world.

"2. Heat, engine design are bigger factors than strictly RPM. WOT or near WOT on the Autobahn generates very high oil temps. Motorcycle engines are quite a bit different in design than the typical passenger car engine, so it's apples and oranges. What's the viscosity of oil in jet turbine engines spinning at 100,000 RPM?"

Motorcycle engines are becoming more similar to car engines, higher output for normally aspirated engines excluded, as they're using fuel injection, water cooling, oil cooling, etc. They need better cooling for the increasingly higher outputs. Like turbos in diesels or gas engines, or high performance cars run at high sustained speeds, motorcycles are a good example of durability with sustained high rpm use, provided the typical heavier oils with robust additives are used. The point is that the 'equal or better wear protection' argument is false, as heavier, not lighter oils are used in these situations.

"3. Extrapolating what's done in racing to help in your oil viscosity selection for the street is always ripe with folly unless you can actually race your car on the street under the identical conditions."

Fine, then please no more justification of 5w20 'cause the race teams use it'.

"4. 5w20 may have been developed to enhance fuel economy, but the other requirement you thick heads leave out is that it was spec-ed to provide the same or better lubrication ability in engines recommending it use. "

It is a fact that 5w20 does not provide the same or better wear protection than the heavier oils that it replaced, Ford even acknowledges this as 5w20 was NOT recommended to be used in all vehicles. Honda acknowledges the same, as they state that while 5w20 provides good fuel economy it is not to be used for sustained high speed operation.

5w20 will be just fine for the vast majority of owners in this country, and it will typically provide a bit better fuel economy as intended. I think it is obvious to everyone, even die hard 5w20 advocates, that it was irresponsible to recommend using 5w20 in older vehicles that have had a steady of heavier oils over the years, as increased oil consumption and wear will be the typical result. Most importantly though is the need to ackowledge the obvious; 5w20 was recommended for fuel economy, not because of clearances or because racers use it or because it provides better protection, as it does not provide the same protection as the heavier oils that it replaced.

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#130252 - 04/21/05 02:43 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
427Z06 Offline


Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
quote:
Originally posted by 1sttruck:
The point is that '5w20 is required because of tighter clearances' is false, otherwise the same engines with the same clearances being used in other parts of the world would also be REQUIRED to use 5w20. 5w20 is not required to be used, and in fact other, heavier oils appear to be used in other parts of the world.

I never said that. In the same light, you can't conclude that thicker oil is better just because it is used elsewhere. It's quite possible it's just as good or better when it was validated for use in the US, however, for marketing, distribution, or public awarness reasons the manufacturers chose not to specify it elsewhere.


quote:
Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Motorcycle engines are becoming more similar to car engines, higher output for normally aspirated engines excluded, as they're using fuel injection, water cooling, oil cooling, etc. They need better cooling for the increasingly higher outputs. Like turbos in diesels or gas engines, or high performance cars run at high sustained speeds, motorcycles are a good example of durability with sustained high rpm use, provided the typical heavier oils with robust additives are used. The point is that the 'equal or better wear protection' argument is false, as heavier, not lighter oils are used in these situations.

Similar features and an oil being validated for use on a particular engine design is quite a stretch. I can put fuel injection on my lawnmower, and it's not going to change the lubrication requirements. And in all actuality, lubrication trends have been generally moving in the direction of less viscious oils over the past 30 years as the chemistry of the basestocks, AW/FM, and VII have improved. Higher viscosity oils may provide less wear in certain engines that require them, but it's false logic to say that that proves it provides better protection in all engines.

quote:
Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Fine, then please no more justification of 5w20 'cause the race teams use it'.

Fine, then please no more justification of 5w40 'cause the ralleye teams use it'.

quote:
Originally posted by 1sttruck:
It is a fact that 5w20 does not provide the same or better wear protection than the heavier oils that it replaced, Ford even acknowledges this as 5w20 was NOT recommended to be used in all vehicles..

Another leap of logic. Just because 0-5w20s are not recommended for certain engines doesn't mean they provide less protection in others. Further, it just may mean that it wasn't validated in those engines because Ford didn't want to spend the money to do so.

From April 2001 edition of Lubes'n'Greases a Ford engineer Riley addresses Wear and Durabilty concerns: "First, we've run a complete gamut of 5w20 oil evaluations, including engine dynamomotor tests with each engine to ensure there is no compromise or effect on the durability of that engine. Second, we've run extensive field tests comparing 5w-20 with 5w-30 oils and GF-3 with GF-2. We've run these tests in various fleets under severe operating conditions."

quote:
Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Honda acknowledges the same, as they state that while 5w20 provides good fuel economy it is not to be used for sustained high speed operation...

You've been duped there. That's not what it says in the Japanese manuals.

quote:
Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Most importantly though is the need to ackowledge the obvious; 5w20 was recommended for fuel economy...as it does not provide the same protection as the heavier oils that it replaced.

Nice belief system. And that's all it is until your personal views are validated in a properly conducted test on a significant number of real engines for the environment they were designed for.

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#130253 - 04/21/05 05:40 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
JohnBrowning Offline


Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 9448
Loc: USA
427Z06, Jet/Tubines are totaly different then IC engine. You basicly have a complex stove pipe with an staged impeller to compress the air/fuel before ignition. All of the moveing parts besides valves and actuators are rotating and remain at a fairly constant speed most of the time. You do not have a need for a super high HTHS oil. You need great hot and cold flow chateristics with the ability to move remove a lot of heat and keep some of the finest clearanced shafts and bearing seperated. Rest assured that if you took an aircraft engine turning 100,000+ RPM's and had to make it stop and reverse rotation 6000-20,000 times a minute it would need a high HTHS oil. Alot of the ester based oils used in aviation would damage the seals on a car so bad that they would fail soon after. Different chemistrys!!!!

In an IC engine the most of the parts are traveling perpendicular to the direction of rotation and come to sudden stops and starts over and over again and the valve train parts are basicly grinding and shearing the oil apart.

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#130254 - 04/21/05 06:33 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
bulwnkl Offline


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1395
Loc: Arizona
quote:
Originally posted by AEHaas:
...If you want 1 or 2 MPG better then make the engine a few cc smaller. If every engine was just a little smaller then you get better gas mileage for the whole car line-up...

I'm sorry, that simply isn't true. If you meant to say that making each vehicle just a few hundred pounds lighter would increase mpg, then I agree. Minor adjustments to displacement, however, (275 cu. in. versus 280 for example) are truly irrelevant.

The reason the pickups (in your example) continue to gain size and weight is that's what the market here demands according to the automakers' sales and marketing efforts/research. Using lighter-weight oils are a way to mitigate the effects of increasing girth.

I have been wanting to ask: if longevity is your goal, why do you not use a thicker oil (such as that recommended by the manufacturer) but also employ an oil heater and a pre-oiler? I cannot believe such additions would be of economic consequence relaitve to the combined price of an Enzo, a Maybach, and an S-class. They would also provide orders of magnitude greater longevity compared with using a slightly lower-viscosity oil for cold-start purposes.

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#130255 - 04/21/05 06:37 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
427Z06 Offline


Registered: 12/06/03
Posts: 7409
Loc: Austin, TX
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
427Z06, Jet/Tubines are totaly different then IC engine.

John, thanks for the little lesson. RD&T of aircraft jet engines is what I did in the AF for 10 years. I believe I have a clue on their principles of operation. However, you are right, the demands on the lubricants is in many ways different between them and an IC engine. The point I was trying to make was that strictly going by the RPMs of a device is not the best indicator of it's lubrication requirements. Think turbocharger if you like.

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#130256 - 04/21/05 06:45 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
darkdan Offline


Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 897
Loc: owatonna, mn
I have 9 pages of ford propaganda about 5w20 (and other things) if anyone would like to read the FAQ.

Right click and save as please:

http://www.dantheoilman.com/fordoilfaq.doc

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#130257 - 04/21/05 07:19 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
The propaganda's flying from Ford and Honda too
Why the cars they build should use a thinner brew
It's got BITOG a churnin' bout what is really true
We all have our opinions: 1 for me and 1 for you

So it really seems to me the board is in a fix
Back & forth the debate goes as each gets in his licks
But as for me my mind is firm and knows which side it picks
Don't give me an oil with anything less than HTHS=3.6

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#130258 - 04/21/05 07:26 AM Re: I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
bulwnkl Offline


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1395
Loc: Arizona
[Smile] Very good!

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