Amsoil in Engine and Diffs Increase fuel economy?

[lone_Ranger]

Hello from Australia, First time Poster...
We do big time towing in the Outback of off-road luxury trailers called Bushtracker...

This is about fuel economy as an added bonus to using full synthetics.. Not just economy, in the big picture it is about Range of fuel!!! I am one of the Directors of Bushtracker and this is one of my current experiments- Increasing fuel economy out of larger tow vehicles...

I am almost convinced... This comes from a source I respect, a Bloke who has been a big help in my projects, Larry Musgrave of DiscountPowerParts.com

"Most of your Mobile1, Castrol, Pennzoil, Rotella, Quaker State, etc is a dino oil with the federally mandated 12% or greater class 4 synthetic blended in. This is by United States Federal law allowed to be advertised as a 100% synthetic. Bull sh*t, but true.

Amsoil is a pure synthetic, a class 4 synthetic base with class 5 synthetic buffers."

Now if this is true, and I believe it is, then one would expect to see maybe a 4% increase in fuel economy, 4-5%? Has anybody done a close study of this and carefully done the fuel calculations?? If it is true, it is another good reason to shift over. My truck is ready for it with 20,000 kms on the clock (about 13,000 miles, broke in enough)...

I have already done big fueling improvements in my 07 King Ranch F-350 CC LWB Dually, with a MBRP 3.5 downpipe to 4" free flow exhaust, and SCT Tuner with Erics Tunes at Innovtive Diesel, meanwhile I have loaded up the Dually, Bull bar, long range tanks, tool boxes, 5th wheel ball mount, and Friday a Warn 16.5 Ti Winch we built a cradle for in my Shop... It dipped down to about 17mpg as I loaded it up... But: The 4" exhaust and SCT Tuner, have me pushing hard on 20 mpg with a King Ranch CC F-350 Dually... Leaning on 10,000 lbs.. 4500 kg...

Dats pwetty good (Sylvester da puddy tat would say)

Will the Amsoil help more? By lowering the Friction Coeficient in the engine and Diffs?

Anybody run any calcs?

Cheers from da Mad Scientist in Australia... lone Ranger

 

[Quest]

Can't stop you from attempting to obtain satisfactions from the extra mullahs spent in trying to get "true" syn into your engine. Afterall: isn't that what most BITOG posters would like to have?

In my case, I've long given up the idea of "true syn" (meaning 100% real deal, not just by semantics) citing only an average of 3~5% gain, at a cost that doesn't make good economic sense to my wallet. Times have changed over the past 15+ yrs and as engine oil standards become better and more stringent (to meet cleanliness, deposit control, oxidation-resistance, wear numbers, etc.), I personally do not see the need to pursue true 100% synthetics but to go with the highest quality syn blend (even most ILSAC GF-4 are blends, mind you) or regular off the shelf "dino" oils.

Q.

 

[hate2work]

The short answer to your question is...probably not.

Not enough room for the long answer. Suffice it to say that any advertised mileage gain typically does not translate to such in the real world.

You want to increase your range? Add an auxiliary fuel tank, mate

Oh yeah,

to Bitog

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
lone_ranger - Welcome to BITOG. Changing from comparitive viscosity mineral lubricants to synthetic lubricants may show some fuel economy benefits. Usually the most significant increase in economy is via the drive line fluids - then, most gains are lost by the Driver's right foot!

M1 products are Group 4

 

[oilboy123]

I have never noticed a difference. I have run dino oil for many years, then other brand synthetics.

Then I started using Amsoil about 13 years ago. Did not see better MPG with it.
But trying to measure in the 3-5% range is kind of tricky. I use it for the long drain and wear and tear.

I also don't like dragging my booty under the car every 5 minutes to change the oil. Once a year is enough for me.

Oh and welcome to our madness!

 

[lone_Ranger]

This is interesting that so far, you do not seem to think it offers better fuel economy..

On the PowerStroke Forum, I have only two replies, and they seem to think it does. One seems to think it meant 1-1.5 mpg better..
Interesting... I hope we get some more replies.. Incidently, I have never used synthetics in the engine, thinking that I did not want to extend oil change times due to dilution of big diesels in the city driving.. If you don't go for an hour run at highway speeds to flash off the solvents, it can look like you are not using any oil. Anyway, I always thought more frequent oil changes were the go for solvent dilution in diesels, rather than extende oil changes with expensive synthetics. But the idea of reduced friction coefficients, less wear, and possible increase in fuel economy is pushing me that way...

And yes I have long range tanks. 335 litres total. But I am a long term diesel Rig Junkie, and this is experimental R&D for my Bushtracker Owners. You can see our site (Free) and this is not Promotional, I am Booked out for 11 months, this is a free and fun Forum for you to see pictures of 4x4 travel in Real Time on the Bushtrackerownersforum.com in Australia.. No plug here, free for fun, my gift to share with you. I could not ship the Bushtracker overseas anyway, too big for a postpack

Anyway, I have never used, nor pushed, the idea of synthetics. Except in Automatics.. I perferred more frequent oil changes because of the potential for solvent dilution and possibly acid build up. Any Nebies reading this: That is why a vehicle around town for months looks like it uses no oil, then when on a trip it seems like the diesel engine used a quart of oil in the first 100 miles. Solvents diluted the oil, highspeed and heat then FLASHED them off..

Anyway, thank you all for the welcome, and I hope we get some more comments and experience here..

 

[tdi-rick]

Another Welcome to the board Lone_Ranger.

Originally Posted By: lone_Ranger


I am almost convinced... This comes from a source I respect, a Bloke who has been a big help in my projects, Larry Musgrave of DiscountPowerParts.com

"Most of your Mobile1, Castrol, Pennzoil, Rotella, Quaker State, etc is a dino oil with the federally mandated 12% or greater class 4 synthetic blended in. This is by United States Federal law allowed to be advertised as a 100% synthetic. Bull sh*t, but true.

Amsoil is a pure synthetic, a class 4 synthetic base with class 5 synthetic buffers."


Cheers from da Mad Scientist in Australia... lone Ranger


Hmmm. I'm surprised no ones called Bull$hi# on this already.
It's a shame when we hear untruths like this.

I've been running Delvac 1 in two engines (Land Rover and Nissan TD's) and Castrol/Redline/Torco synthetic driveline fluids at various times and syn greases on those hubs that are grease lubed for many years now and haven't really noticed any % gain in fuel economy, but never really looked for it either. I've mostly run the full syns for the bit of extra protection they may provide in our summers.
Anything that was gained would've been lost with the aggressive mud tyres, roof racks, ladders, and indifferent road surfaces including lots of gravel/shale, etc used in my day to day running around

BTW, these are ALL full synthetic fluids (Groups IV/V). Amsoil doesn't have a monopoly on the 'full syn' label.
Some that know no better infer this as being a superior product, when in fact these days the line between full and partial syn is blurred to be almost non existent in performance, and the inference that Ams is the only 'true' Synthetic is disingenuous.

For the record I have nothing against Amsoil, I've used it very successfully in a heavy duty ATF application in the past, and would have no hesitation in using it again if it was readily available and cost effective.
I'm currently running some 'interim' Group III based engine oils to try and nail a possible contamination issue in one of the engines.

 

[OVERKILL]

Most of Penzoil's "Platinum" synthetic grades are Group III
Most of Castrol's "Synteq" grades are Group III (GC obviously being the alluded to exception)
Most, if not all of the Mobil 1 grades are Group IV (I don't know of one that officially isn't)
ALL of the Redline grades are Group V
Amsoil's XL series oil is Group III
Any of the other Amsoil grades are Group IV
I don't have two sweet clues what Royal Purple is.

It's unfortunate when Amsoil is represented in this manner; the unrealistic preachings really do nothing for it's reputation. It's a FANTASTIC product, but doesn't need to be advertised as superior from other products (mainly Mobil 1) in ways that it is not. The primary focus seems to be base stocks.... some of which COME from Exxon-Mobil!!! After all, Exxon-Mobil IS the world's largest producer of Group IV (PAO) and Group V (Ester) base stocks

I would run Amsoil with confidence! just don't have unrealistic expectations.

 

[JHZR2]

anybody that cannot spell mobil should not be trusted...

 

[lone_Ranger]

Alright,
So the consensus is that I should do it for longer life on engine, maybe running cooler, and the rest is an Urban Myth about the full synthetic meaning a drop in the friction coefficent and better fuel economy... Unless anyone else wants to jump in...

Well, then what about the Amsoil concept altogether?? Is is any better in real time, than the age old good diesel oils like Delo 400, or Rotella ? They are around, but not that commonly available in Australia. The most commonly used oil for 4x4s here in Australia is Castrol RX Super. And for my Euro Mack horse truck it is Castrol "Tection". But I never go the full recommended oil change interval, and do it sooner than required, more like a Severe Duty interval that is about half.

So is the Amsoil concept (Triple the cost) worth the bother at all? It is not readily available, has to shipped out of Sydney, about 1000 kms, F.O.B. If there is no fuel economy increase, it comes back to my thinking of why bother. Instead of double the interval at three times the cost, dump the Castrol RX Super more often like I have been doing.. Comments?

Kind Regards from the lone Ranger in Oz...

 

[lazaro]

if you run the Amsoil in the drivetrain you will notice an increase in miles per gallon regardless of what some may say here.
If you keep track of oil samples on your equiptment that will help you decide that the oil wont need draining. If anything is in question the oil samples will help guide you to a solution.
As long as you can keep oil filtered and keep dirt from entering the engine via air filter the oil will have a long life longer than you think. wich will be many more times than 3 times the cost of drain and refill multiple times.
I have done it and continue to extend all my vehicles drain interval until my oil sample is flagged

 

[OVERKILL]

Doug Hillary is from Australia and has done many millions of KM of diesel fleet testing. His weighing-in on this conversation would provide the most factual information for your situation.

 

[Steve S]

I really think it would be hard to see a real mpg increase when comparing todays top oils. Though syn oil does go longer between oil change intervals and to get your moneys worth it takes some planning, You would have to look what operating conditions are. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN THE COEFFICIENT OF FRICTION BETWEEN THE BASE OILS AND HOW MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE DOES IT REALLY MAKE IN A FORMULATED ENGINE OIL? all things considered.

 

[tdi-rick]

Mate, it has to be cost effective.

Doug is the best for this, he's really done the sums running a fleet and his break even point was around the 96,000km mark using Delvac 1 over Delvac MX or RX Super.
To do extended drains you really must perform UOA's, and in my experience, the smaller vehicles with stop/start driving and small sumps in the gearbox and diffs is quite problematic, particularly when high towing loads and high ambients are encountered.

Remember that Mobil and Castrol have very, very effective synthetic engine and driveline fluids if that's they way you want to jump and are generally much more available than the boutique brands.
Caltex have some excellent driveline fluids using their borate ester additive package. These are based on mineral oils and are excellent, cutting edge fluids. They also have a synthetic di-ester range of lubes too.

I'm currently using Castrol SAF-XA (80W-140, $23.64/litre + GST) and Castrol Syntrax (75W-90, $20.55/litre + GST) in diffs and t/cases. I'm only buying these in small quantities, and these are both PAO/ester synthetics.

Torco and Redline are a little more $. Redline is available from any Bursons store.

The Mobil synthetics are available from any Mobil depot around the country. Mobil produce a complete range of heavy duty synthetic driveline fluids, generally prefixed with SHC.
The last drum of Delvac 1 I bought cost $205/20 litres.

Neo make some excellent di-ester based lubes, but are quite exxy and as easy to get here as Amsoil.
I had quite a bit of experience using Neo fifteen years ago, they made probably the best gear lubes in the world at the time, and their engine oils were absolute cutting edge products, and I'm quite happy using the oils I do ATM.

Don't be too hung up on base fluids. I used to be, at one point I wouldn't even consider anything that wasn't a di-ester at a minimum ('better' than Amsoil !

) but the fact is that blending a lubricant is much more than a 'good' base oil, the additive package is of vital importance and the blender must take a holistic approach.
Some mineral based lubes such as LE, Swepco and Caltex/Texaco's borate added gear lubes outperform a lot of premium synthetic lubes.

just some thoughts.

 

[oilboy123]

It probably does give better MPG but it is hard to measure. I think measuring in the 0-5% range is pretty hard. Too many variables................

My thought is using syn just for MPG increase is not worth it. Using for possible MPG increase, extended drains and less wear and tear makes more sense. I also look at the labor I spend changing oil, my time is worth something.

Changing oil 2-3 times more often means 2-3 times more work and chances for something to go wrong.

I look at the total cost.

 

[tdi-rick]

Geez the edit function gives me the pips...

Forgot to say that Doug's break even point was running in semi's with DD60 Series engines vs 30,000km OCI's using the RX Super.
My break even point in the Patrol was a bit around 12-15,000km and we could extend that to 20,000km at times with lower wear metals vs 5,000km oil changes.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Ranger – some comments to spur your thoughts on a bit

Castrol’s RX Super is an excellent product when used as directed (application/engine). Only marginal benefits apply with a shift to a synthetic lubricant of the same viscosity. In the early 1990s I helped to develop Tection (via Enduro 2). It can at least tolerate the engine manufacturer’s recommended OCI’s with ease

Your predilection about fuel “dilution” can only be tested via regular “blotter” tests or a trending UOA programme

Contrary to what many people think, diffs and many gearboxes actually run quite cool – some too cool! Much testing on Eaton and Rockwell diffs showed that in
Using an 85W-140 mineral lubricant in these conditions and especially around town, when a 75W-90 synthetic is suitable, is a “parasitic” consumer of fuel. However, the benefits are soon consumed by excessive idling and etc – a case of overwhelming variables from a large mix

The idea of the fully synthetically lubricated vehicle is a good one – one of my International “S” Lines (DD S60, RR, Rockwells) was purposely the first such truck in Australia in the early 1990s. But cost effectiveness is always a consideration – at least for me. My total Fleet in the end was synthetically lubricated – including a number of “S” Lines used in Brisbane and Sydney pick up and drop work

The Brands of lubricant involved are not important but the correct viscosities are. No one Brand is significantly better than another in a general sense – at the limits Rick’s comments about the fluids he uses are very accurate

Around town a 5W-40 synthetic HDEO is more fuel efficient than a 15W-40 HDEO. This has to do with the warm up phase and the ups and downs of the engine’s revs during the operational cycle

Many years ago I did some such testing with/for Mercedes Benz on their heavy truck V6, V8 and V10 engines. Since then and at the limits I would always use the lowest viscosity lubricants recommended by the component manufacturers for the application!

Eaton-Fuller now factory fill with synthetic fluids in certain “families” in Australia as a direct result of my testing that took place over 15 years ago

 

[lone_Ranger]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Ranger –

Castrol’s RX Super is an excellent product when used as directed (application/engine). Only marginal benefits apply with a shift to a synthetic lubricant of the same viscosity. In the early 1990s I helped to develop Tection (via Enduro 2). It can at least tolerate the engine manufacturer’s recommended OCI’s with ease


Thank you Doug, you sound like the Expert... So Urban Myths opinion in a nutshell...

1) Amsoil any practical improvement to fuel economy... No? I have two that say yes, checking with hand calculations.. Do I have to try it, or is it a fluke and overall you would say no...?

2) Amsoil Practically any better than the common higher grades like Delo or Rotella? If you only do say 15,000 km intervals?

3) And any pratical gains to swith from 7000 km intervals with RX Super that I do now?

Thank you in advance for your comments. I have about 1000 Bushtracker Owners towing vans, and hence my research. On something like this I can do the tests myself the long and hard way, OR, I can accept a consensus of opinions from experts like you..

Thank you in advance from Australia..

 

[Pablo]

Quote:
...the federally mandated 12% or greater class 4 synthetic blended in....


He pulled that one right out of his fibbing hiney.

As Doug basically said, if you stay on the lower viscosity side of a lube range, it's theoretically possible you could get slightly better MPG. Most likely the tiny difference with synthetic lubricants comes from the ability of synthetic oil to naturally have a lower viscosity at colder temperatures. But in reality this small difference gets hidden in many other variables that contribute to MPG.

 

[Johnny]

I'm going to cut and paste this one. Pablo agreed with Doug.