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#1239693 - 09/20/08 12:00 PM What exactly do the VW specs mean?
saaber1 Offline


Registered: 11/28/07
Posts: 1877
Loc: Pacnw
On some forums, I have heard a lot of people talking about how if an oil meets VW 502 specs that it is "the best" in terms of protection vs. any oil that doesn't meet that spec.

Also, they talk a lot about the "hierarchy" and that a 503 oil is better because the number is higher and therefore a newer and better spec.

I believe both statements that are so often thrown out as fact are wrong, but I don't really know what exact factors the VW spec. considers. Does any body have a link to the actual test? I assume the following factors are part of the VW spec.? Does anyone know how much anti-wear/protection weighs vs the other factors?

1) mpg

2) emissions

3) starting viscosity (start of test I mean)

4) ending viscosity (end of test I mean)

5) anti wear/protection

6) detergency

7) other?

It just doesn't seem right to talk about VW spec oils as the holy grail for protection when instead I think the specs are trying to balance many factors, one of which is anti-wear/protection.


Edited by saaber1 (09/20/08 12:11 PM)
_________________________
"when 5W30 is cold, ...the oil is 35 weight (5+30),...20 w 50 starts at 70 and warms up to 50"
- Kyle, auto mechanic & VP Speedline Motorsports, INTL

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#1239742 - 09/20/08 02:11 PM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: saaber1]
TeeDub Offline


Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 752
Loc: NY
The only thing the VW 502.00 spec means is that the oil's been tested in the 2.0L, 115 Hp VW gas engine. There are specific limits for valvetrain wear, oil deposits, oil consumption, viscosity increase and TBN retention. As I recall the test runs for approx 200 hrs and no makeup oil is allowed.

VW 505.00 is similar bit uses the old 1.6L. IDI, VW diesel engine.
_________________________
NYSOFMIND

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#1239750 - 09/20/08 02:30 PM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: TeeDub]
jpr Offline


Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 383
Loc: San Diego, CA
VW 500.00 (officially invalid) Oil for naturally aspirated gasoline and diesel engines with normal fill without extended interval (15000 km 1 year), HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA A3 + additional VW tests

VW 501.01 (officially invalid) Oil for naturally aspirated gasoline and diesel engines without extended oil change interval (15000 km 1 year), HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA A2 + additional VW tests

VW 502.00 Oil for high performance gasoline engines without extended oil fill change interval (15000 km 1 year), HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA A3 + additional VW tests

VW 503.00 Oil for gasoline engines with extended oil fill change interval (30000 km 2 years), HTHS viscosity 2.9 - 3.4 mPa-s, ACEA A3 + additional VW tests

VW 503.01 Oil for AUDI turbo-gasoline engines with extended oil fill change interval and Volkswagen W8 and W12 engines (30000 km 2 years), HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA A3 + additional VW tests

VW 504.00 For Euro IV gasoline engines with extended oil fill change interval (30000 km 2 years) HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA A3 + additional VW tests, 5W-30 only, mid-SAPS

VW 505.00 Oil for diesel engines without extended oil fill change interval (15000 km 1 year), HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA B3 + additional VW tests

VW 507.00 For Euro IV diesel engines with extended oil fill change interval (30000 km 2 years) HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA B4-04 + additional VW tests, 5W-30 only, mid-SAPS

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#1242664 - 09/24/08 06:56 PM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: jpr]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4826
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
jpr - VW's Test protocols are outcome specific and the relevant ACEA Quality standard is typically the starting point. That is one reason why ACEA was formed

Some of VW's Test protocols may also involve VW's component suppliers for such things as cam chains and gears, camshaft treatments, actuators (especially valve train), pistons, ring packs and even the supplier of turbochargers, superchargers and perhaps the block/heads and the like. These people may work with VW to devise the Test protocols and seek outcomes to substantiate Warranty provisions and the like

Much of the testing will be done using very sophistocated wear measurement practices such as. For the 506.01 protocol a 1000hr radionucleide test was devised and waer measurement taken hourly in nanometres - one millionth of a mm!

It is unwise IMHO to discount the engine makers tests. They will be the most comprehensive needed before the end user's real world - in day to day use operation

VW's lubricant supplier (currently Castrol) works on field testing outcomes and typically have large fleets of vehicles substantiating the Lab. results in real world operations

Many of these vehicles are placed in used where specific use occurs with normal drivers - high speed motorway, in town and at the extremes of temperature and etc
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#1242733 - 09/24/08 08:21 PM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: Doug Hillary]
jpr Offline


Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 383
Loc: San Diego, CA
I was too lazy to upload it before, but here's some slightly dated info from Motul on the VW test requirements -

I totally agree with you on the value of engine maker's testing.

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#1243828 - 09/26/08 12:17 PM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: jpr]
ym42 Offline


Registered: 04/08/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Cherry Hill, NJ
Seems like the point with European specs is not how to maintain your engine for the least amount of money but how to save the natural resources, at any cost. I mean do you think there is any point in keeping the oil for 20000 miles inside the engine apart of conservation? Oil is cheap here is USA, so change more often...

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#1243851 - 09/26/08 01:08 PM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: ym42]
saaber1 Offline


Registered: 11/28/07
Posts: 1877
Loc: Pacnw
 Originally Posted By: ym42
Seems like the point with European specs is not how to maintain your engine for the least amount of money but how to save the natural resources, at any cost.


Or maybe more accurately, how to achieve maximum marketing success by showing how green-friendly your cars are. Or some cars like Porsche use the 20,000 mile OCI as a marketing tool to show how infrequently the cars need to be serviced.

_________________________
"when 5W30 is cold, ...the oil is 35 weight (5+30),...20 w 50 starts at 70 and warms up to 50"
- Kyle, auto mechanic & VP Speedline Motorsports, INTL

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#1245384 - 09/28/08 03:39 PM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: jpr]
UG_Passat Offline


Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 1005
Loc: NJ
 Originally Posted By: jpr
VW 500.00 (officially invalid) Oil for naturally aspirated gasoline and diesel engines with normal fill without extended interval (15000 km 1 year), HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA A3 + additional VW tests

VW 501.01 (officially invalid) Oil for naturally aspirated gasoline and diesel engines without extended oil change interval (15000 km 1 year), HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA A2 + additional VW tests

VW 502.00 Oil for high performance gasoline engines without extended oil fill change interval (15000 km 1 year), HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA A3 + additional VW tests

VW 503.00 Oil for gasoline engines with extended oil fill change interval (30000 km 2 years), HTHS viscosity 2.9 - 3.4 mPa-s, ACEA A3 + additional VW tests

VW 503.01 Oil for AUDI turbo-gasoline engines with extended oil fill change interval and Volkswagen W8 and W12 engines (30000 km 2 years), HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA A3 + additional VW tests

VW 504.00 For Euro IV gasoline engines with extended oil fill change interval (30000 km 2 years) HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA A3 + additional VW tests, 5W-30 only, mid-SAPS

VW 505.00 Oil for diesel engines without extended oil fill change interval (15000 km 1 year), HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA B3 + additional VW tests

VW 507.00 For Euro IV diesel engines with extended oil fill change interval (30000 km 2 years) HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA B4-04 + additional VW tests, 5W-30 only, mid-SAPS


quick correctionss:
503.00 & 503.01 = variable service intervals (up to 30,000 km)
504 & 507 are suitable for both variable and fixed service intervals.

of course, there are 505.01, 506.00 and 506.01 for diesels also.

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#1254711 - 10/10/08 07:58 PM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: jpr]
milehighassassin Offline


Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 92
Loc: Fort Collins & Vail, CO
 Originally Posted By: jpr


VW 505.00 Oil for diesel engines without extended oil fill change interval (15000 km 1 year), HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA B3 + additional VW tests

VW 507.00 For Euro IV diesel engines with extended oil fill change interval (30000 km 2 years) HTHS viscosity min. 3.5 mPa-s, ACEA B4-04 + additional VW tests, 5W-30 only, mid-SAPS


505.00 is not for ALL diesels. The PD Motor (2004-2006)requires 505.01 or better. So 507 would be fine, their oils are backwards compatible.

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#1255877 - 10/12/08 03:36 PM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: milehighassassin]
glenncof Offline


Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 1051
Loc: Northern California
saaber1,

You can find lots of info related to VW testing. Here is one test lab on the T4 sequence: http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/global/volkswgn/default.htm

"Better" or "best" is relative. First you need to evaluate what the OEM testing means, then determine if it is relevant to yr app and how much so, and then evaluate other items like price/availability/OCI.

Generally I find meeting OEM spec's is "better to have" then not have. But having an OEM spec does not mean it's "better", for instance...testing cost money...if the market for the oil is perceived to be small ...why test ?

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#1256326 - 10/13/08 08:51 AM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: glenncof]
1sttruck Offline


Registered: 03/20/04
Posts: 4378
Loc: Camas, WA
"Oil is cheap here is USA, so change more often... "

Or oil needs to be changed more often in the US because it's cheap.....

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#1257911 - 10/15/08 01:30 PM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: saaber1]
Volvohead Offline


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 3453
Loc: SE Pa
What exactly do the VW specs mean?

They mean we can't use any of our existing oil every time we get a new VW.

We've got a new Sportwagen TDI coming in next month (got the VIN), which is a 507.00 engine. So despite having 100+ quarts of top shelf oils on hand (including GC, RL, RTS and Schaeffers), it's back to the VW dealer to buy a case of "507".

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#1257997 - 10/15/08 03:14 PM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: Volvohead]
moribundman Offline


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 23591
 Originally Posted By: Volvohead
What exactly do the VW specs mean?

They mean we can't use any of our existing oil every time we get a new VW.

We've got a new Sportwagen TDI coming in next month (got the VIN), which is a 507.00 engine. So despite having 100+ quarts of top shelf oils on hand (including GC, RL, RTS and Schaeffers), it's back to the VW dealer to buy a case of "507".


In your case, you really ought to choose your new car based on the oil you have in stock.

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#1258259 - 10/15/08 08:21 PM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: moribundman]
firemachine69 Offline


Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 1685
Loc: Sudbury, ON, Canada
And people wonder why I mock VW...
_________________________
I have a very bad mem... What were we talking about again?

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#1258506 - 10/16/08 05:24 AM Re: What exactly do the VW specs mean? [Re: firemachine69]
lars11 Offline


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 706
Loc: Sweden
Well, the porsche intervals are not odd here in europe, its more like standard to require 20-30kkm or two years OCI for normal conditions. Often drivetrain warranties are valid for 100-120kkm.
I would like to know the average car life in years and km for US and Euro vehicles.
In spite of the longer intervals, I seldom hear about shot engines here. How long do you drive a car?

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