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#1137824 - 04/26/08 07:46 PM Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil brands?
BeamerDude Offline


Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Chicagoland Area, USA
Hi,
I want to use Full Synthetic Motor Oil, and I have been searching high and low (both in this forum and on the web) for a list of TRUE Class IV (PAO) Motor Oils... - but to no avail. There's just no definite list out there; just opinions and hearsay.

I am aware, by now, that this is a highly debated question, and that motor oil manufacturers are simply not telling the (entire) truth about their products. Example: "Full Synthetic" may not necessarily mean it is entirely(!) synthetic; best examples being "Castrol Syntec" and "Mobile 1" - which are PAO-base, but have a much higher percentage of Class III base stocks mixed in. To me, that's simply a lie (or cheating). Even though these may be "good oils", they are just a "blend", and not truly synthetic... and I don't care about those.

From what I could find out thus far, only "AMSOIL" seems to produce true PAO/Class IV-based Synthetic Motor Oil.

Now... here's my two-fold question for you:
1.) What other Class IV/PAO true Synthetic motor oils are 'out there', that I could buy in the car shop around the corner (..instead of having to order by mail as it is with the Amsoil juice)??

2.) Apparently, labels on oil bottles that claim to be "[Fully] Synthetic" give no indication of their true base. -- So, HOW CAN ONE BE SURE it is a Class IV oil, and not a blend??

P.S.: This is not about which oil works best for you; I'm sure everyone has favorites and/or opinions. This is just about the FACTS.. and which brands are truly PAO/Class IV-base motor oils.

Thanks, Guys... - much appreciated!!


Edited by BeamerDude (04/26/08 07:51 PM)

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#1137831 - 04/26/08 07:56 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil brands? [Re: BeamerDude]
MGregoir Offline


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 1784
Loc: Bonnyville, AB
Group IV oils that are all group IV have poor seal compatibility and additive solubility so they do not exist. Between additive carriers and esters, alkylated napthalenes or other stuff added to help the oil be more soluble and seal compatible, I doubt any oil is more than 90% PAO.

Castrol Syntec 0W-30 that says it is made in Germany is primarily PAO.

Basically all grades of Mobil 1 are primarily PAO. I doubt any grades are less than 70% PAO. The 0W-20, 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-50 and 15W-50 are all vastly group IV/V base, there is debate about the 5W-30 and 10W-30 but nobody really knows for sure.

Valvoline SynPower is primarily group III with PAO blended in.

Pennzoil Platinum, Quaker State Q, and Castrol Syntec that is not the 0W-30 made in Germany plus most other off the shelf "synthetics" are group III. I don't know the origin of the Platinum and Quaker State bases as far as production technique but if they use Shell's XHVI base oil, which is a group III made from slack wax produced in hydrocracking base oil, it is fundamentally (and somewhat oxymoronically) a fully synthetic group III.

The lines are very, very blurry.


Edited by MGregoir (04/26/08 07:59 PM)

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#1137835 - 04/26/08 08:04 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil bra [Re: MGregoir]
BeamerDude Offline


Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Chicagoland Area, USA
Thanks, MGegoir, that's a start! Didn't know about the poor seal compability... thanks for the info.

Also, I've heard of the German-made "Castrol Syntec" that's supposed to be primarily PAO... Any idea where I can buy that?

Thanks for your insightful response!!!


Edited by BeamerDude (04/26/08 08:05 PM)
Edit Reason: update

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#1137846 - 04/26/08 08:11 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil bra [Re: BeamerDude]
MGregoir Offline


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 1784
Loc: Bonnyville, AB
AutoZone is the easiest place to get German Castrol. Only comes in quart bottles. Judging by your username, you are running a BMW, and it is an A3 rated oil that is on the thicker side of a 30 weight, almost a 40 weight, and carries many BMW approvals. It is comparable to Mobil 1 0W-40 which is their flagship oil and is used in machinery as expensive as Honda IndyCar engines and Porsche factory race cars.

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#1137852 - 04/26/08 08:15 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil bra [Re: BeamerDude]
Steve S Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 18449
Loc: East of IGO
What really amazes me is the companies want you to spend 6 dollars on up for their oil yet if you call them and ask what is in it they will say proprietary. Yeah right. like it is a secret if you want to spend the $$$ a lab can get you a pretty good idea what is in the oil .
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Why do people post I want the best for my car,,, When there isn't anything that is the best on the car to begin with.

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#1137855 - 04/26/08 08:18 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil bra [Re: Steve S]
Steve S Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 18449
Loc: East of IGO
Some Autozones have the German castrol, M1 0w/40 supposed to be syn,supposedly Valvoline euro oils are real syn.
_________________________
Why do people post I want the best for my car,,, When there isn't anything that is the best on the car to begin with.

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#1137858 - 04/26/08 08:22 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil bra [Re: Steve S]
BeamerDude Offline


Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Chicagoland Area, USA
MGregoir

So, only the German-made Castrol Syntec 0W30 is the real deal? But, isn't that more a cold-temperature oil? ("0W")?

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#1137860 - 04/26/08 08:23 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil bra [Re: BeamerDude]
BeamerDude Offline


Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Chicagoland Area, USA
Thanks, Steve S!
"Valvoline" also has a "Euro" edition, huh? Which one is that, do you know?


Edited by BeamerDude (04/26/08 08:25 PM)

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#1137867 - 04/26/08 08:29 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil bra [Re: BeamerDude]
MGregoir Offline


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 1784
Loc: Bonnyville, AB
 Originally Posted By: BeamerDude
MGregoir

So, only the German-made Castrol Syntec 0W30 is the real deal? But, isn't that more a cold-temperature oil? ("0W")?


Yes, there is American made Syntec that is Group III (the base oil is made by Petro-Canada) based, but the German made is PAO. In Europe, it is sold as Castrol Edge. The cold temperature thing is not an issue, it does not comprimise the high temperature performance of the oil for the benefit of low. In fact, it is better because the oil will flow faster at low oil temperatures, protecting better.

Mobil 1 0W-40 and Castrol Syntec European Formula 0W-30 are quite comprable oils in every way, and both are the PAO based oils you are looking for.

I believe Steve is referring to the non-ILSAC (ILSAC covering 0W-20, 5W-20, 5W-30 and 10W-30) grades of SynPower. There is a 5W-30 MST, 5W-40, 5W-40 HST and 20W-50 that I have heard are primarily PAO but never had verification one way or another.


Edited by MGregoir (04/26/08 08:34 PM)

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#1137869 - 04/26/08 08:30 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil bra [Re: BeamerDude]
bmwtechguy Offline


Registered: 06/15/04
Posts: 2522
Loc: South Carolina
Vavloline currently has a 5W-40 that has the Euro specs listed. It is a relatively thin 40 weight at operating temps like most Euro 5W-40's. (That is, compared to a CJ4 or CI4 5W-40 diesel rated oil) The German Castrol 0W-30 is actaully a bit on the heavy end of the 30 range at operating temps, so they are really close actually. The 0W part has more to do with how well it flows at extremely cold temps such as -20 to -40F.

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#1137870 - 04/26/08 08:31 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil bra [Re: BeamerDude]
BeamerDude Offline


Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Chicagoland Area, USA
I bought some "domestic" Castrol Syntech (5W30) in the store today.. - before I did some research on the web. Bad idea...

Well, the Castrol sure won't hurt my engine, I'm sure - but I wanted to get some "real" syn, and not just a mix. Now it has -sort of- become a personal thing; I refuse to buy motor oil that doesn't clearly say what it's based on (at least, I'd like to).

Seems like I will have a hard time ever being sure. I'll probably return the "mixed" Syntec and try to get some of the (as-close-as-it-gets to the)"real deal" (PAO) Castrol then. Or, I'll try the M1... The latter one seems to have quite a 'fan base' out there.. :-)

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#1137874 - 04/26/08 08:37 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil bra [Re: BeamerDude]
simple_gifts Offline


Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 8684
Loc: Middlesex County CT
 Quote:

Yeah right. like it is a secret if you want to spend the $$$ a lab can get you a pretty good idea what is in the oil .


It is a company's IP, not subject to publication. Is that unreasonable?


Edited by simple_gifts (04/26/08 08:38 PM)
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#1137875 - 04/26/08 08:37 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil bra [Re: bmwtechguy]
BeamerDude Offline


Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Chicagoland Area, USA
Thanks, bmwtechguy !

P.S.: I like your handle... he he! :-)

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#1137878 - 04/26/08 08:43 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil bra [Re: BeamerDude]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33230
Loc: New Jersey
Perhaps after you gather all of the inputs, you can tabulate them and then post it up as a clean list. We can then make it a sticky so that this topic does not come up time and time again.

Thanks,

JMH


Edited by JHZR2 (04/26/08 10:10 PM)

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#1137952 - 04/26/08 10:50 PM Re: Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil brands? [Re: BeamerDude]
Bryanccfshr Offline


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 5414
Loc: Durango, Co
There is much historic data available in the search engine. You will never get an accurate compendium of motor oil base stocks. Before you finish one of the formulas will likely change. Instead of relying on the synthetic moniker why not look at the ratings. Need a long drain euro oil? The euro A3 spec is what you are looking for. Want a lower visc high performance oil? A5 is it. Then there is the new Honda spec and manufacturer specs from BMW Mercedes Porsche etc that are indicators of an oil meeting performance criteria set forth by the designers. Don't even have a vehicle that has these specs? Just SM GF4Energy conserving oil? Buy whatever SM Gf4 Energy Conserving oil that makes you smile.


Edited by Bryanccfshr (04/26/08 10:52 PM)
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