HTHS data question

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Does "viscosity modifier concentration" refer to VIIs?

If so they seem to be saying that you can increase HTHS by increasing viscosity or VII but only within the limits of the grade.

If I am not mistaken higher VII content will increase HTHS, just not very efficiently and less so as shear rates increase.
 
My question has been quite well answered.....thanks to all.
I had read a post by Molakule about HTHS, and knew that it is important.....and have used this number as ONE of the items of data to look at in choosing a motor oil.
I also understand the importance of consistant test data...and test methods when comparing one brand to another....and repeatability of a test method.
Truth in what is posted on a product label is another subject.
I am not in a position to call that into question.
 
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Originally Posted By: Pablo
It also says, IMHO, HTHS ≠ Film strength and film strength can and does come from the additive package not the base oil.


I don't believe this is correct except in the case of polymer additives, which are of course integral to any comparison of kinematic viscosity and HTHS. Eliminate those as a variable (which is what HTHS does, to a large extent), and what you have left is the viscosity, and the viscous performance at all shear rates, represented by the base oil.

From here, for example:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fu-99Mc...hl=en#PPA102,M1

"The polymer-derived contribution to high-shear viscosity decreases at very high shear rates but the base oil contribution does not."
 
Originally Posted By: glennc
Originally Posted By: Pablo
It also says, IMHO, HTHS ≠ Film strength and film strength can and does come from the additive package not the base oil.


I don't believe this is correct except in the case of polymer additives, which are of course integral to any comparison of kinematic viscosity and HTHS. Eliminate those as a variable (which is what HTHS does, to a large extent), and what you have left is the viscosity, and the viscous performance at all shear rates, represented by the base oil.

From here, for example:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fu-99Mc...hl=en#PPA102,M1

"The polymer-derived contribution to high-shear viscosity decreases at very high shear rates but the base oil contribution does not."


"come from" was not a good word choice on my part - but I stand by what I wrote. The above quote is fine and good, but I'm talking about film strength and wear rates....an oil could have a fairly high HTHS, but not have the best film strength, and therefore not have the best wear numbers. And I think film strength is certainly at least enhanced with some organic additives such as amines and certain esters.
 
The whole point of HTHS is that it is the fundamental correlant to film strength in real operation. HTHS viscosity is the primary characteristic that enables hydrodynamic separation and it is at the point of hydrodynamic breakdown that AW additives come into play. For example, from here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=g3v3MXz...ucUIuoavw&hl=en

Quote:
In one test...the engine goes from idle to nearly full throttle 20,000 times within one minute. Wear on the pinion pins of the planetary gears showed differing amounts of wear depending on the HTHS viscosities of the ATFs that all contained the same additive package. The pins rotate between boundary and hydrodynamic lubrication. Greater film strength may permit the pins to spend a greater fraction of their time in the hydrodynamic mode, leading to less wear.


Another quote specifically linking wear resistance to a kinematic/HTHS viscosity ratio similar to the one we're discussing here can be found in this document:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2005/0221998.html

Quote:
The present inventors have performed extensive research in order to realize the aforementioned objective. As a result of this research, it was found that even when the viscosity, especially the HTHS 150° C. viscosity of an engine oil composition is further reduced, e.g., to less than 2.6 mPa.s or less than 2.4 mPa.s, if the ratio of the kinematic viscosity at 100° C. (hereafter referred to as “100° C. kinematic viscosity” or “KV100”) and the HTHS 100° C. viscosity (KV100/HTHS100) is held below a specific level, good abrasion resistance under conditions of high temperature and high shear rate can be guaranteed for the aforementioned sliding parts in the engine.


The subtext in the HTHS/kinematic viscosity debate is that kinematic viscosity can be "cheated" through the use of VII polymers and that HTHS is a far more reliable indicator of real-world viscous (hydrodynamic) performance. Look for example at Table 1 towards the bottom of the second link, above. It shows the expected correlation between base oil viscosity, HTHS, VII content, and wear. The more VII in an oil of a given kinematic viscosity at operating temperature, the lower the viscosity of the base oil and the lower, consequently, the HTHS; and the higher the wear.

As Red Line does not use VIIs in most of their street oils the "cheater effect" those VIIs represent does not exist to begin with, and therefore their correlated HTHS numbers would be higher even if they used the same base stocks as other oils. Their actual HTHS values are higher still, implying strongly IMO that their base stocks do indeed have superior properties, which should directly correlate to less wear or the ability to use a lighter grade.

The only way to avoid that logical conclusion in my humble opinion is to question the HTHS numbers themselves, which in the absence of evidence strikes me as an attempt to grasp at straws to maintain the belief that the product is in fact not as good as it and its users claim.
 
If the questions is whether Redline's HTHS numbers are a consequence of their base stock or their additives, I believe the correct answer is "yes".

In regards to base stock, near as I can tell there is a very short list of options. Basically, only three companies are producing POE base stock - Hatco, Uniqema, and Cognis - for a grand total of 8 different product lines. So of the difference was entirely in the base stock, one would expect a few other POE oils to have similar properties to Redline.

The Motul 300V series, looks similar to Redline in terms of additive composition information available in UOA's. The raw HTHS numbers are in fact similar for the 5W30 and 5W40, but the Redline 5W30 kV100 is much less than the Motul, and the 5W40 kv100 of the Redline is much thicker than the Motul.

As other's have pointed out, higher HTHS does seem to have some virtues over lower, but the question is where is the point of diminishing returns? In many of the studies on HTHS, such as the one glennc cited, the range of HTHS numbers tested is quite low, and the conclusions amount to showing virtues of having an HTHS of at least 2.6. But by the current SAE J300 standard, the minimum HTHS for a 30 or 40 grade oil is 2.9. The ACEA standards seem to consider HTHS in two broad ranges, A1 and A5 at 2.9 to 3.5 and A3 at 3.5 and above. What this all adds up to me is that higher HTHS has its virtues, but once you've satisified a certain mimimum need for you application, additional increases are of diminishing relevance.

Which brings to the question of possible side-effects. As I think most are aware, POE, high moly levels, and high total additive levels all have the possibility of being detrimental. To what extent they actually will be surely depends upon application and usage characteristics. I also figure this is what explains the extreme variety of opinions and experiences people seem to have with Redline. For some the application is a good match with no adverse affects, for others it seems to cause problems. Likewise, the higher HTHS may make a difference to some and of no relevance to others. For most though, I'd wager there is little discernable benefit or harm in terms of either performance or wear.
 
There is another consideration in oil packaging. In our experience Red Line holds it's HTHS numbers better in hard running on the dyno. Where Red Line holds it's number withing 5% or so, after long repeated hard runs, POE's we have tested degrade at twice that rate. Again this has nothing to do with daily drivers but it may indicate the general ability of the oil to perform at high temps over the whole oil change interval. Or maybe some of these POE's degrade in an expected manner and still have plenty of reserve to do the job at hand. I have no idea.
 
For the final word maybe we could ask a service writer at a new car dealership. A few wise words from an expert could give us some valuable insight in the HTHS question. As you know the service writer considers the need of individual vehicle owners and tailors a service plan to their exact needs. He is a good resource for inside knowledge to lubrication problems and solutions and has a vast array of solutions for your every need. In fact if there is a known working ration between kV100 and HTHS he could refer to the dealerships’ mechanics. In fact I was warned the other day that summer is coming and I should be prepared to move from winter rated oil like 5w-30 to the much heavier and stouter summer oils like 10w-30. These service writers are on top of their game, yes sir. I just wish one of them would log on and join in. I’ll bet we have yet to talk HTHS to death and all we need to do now is finish it off.
 
You must have a vastly superior caliber of dealership service writer than what I'm used to...

...or you were just making an April Fool's post.
 
I actually had a service writer warn me that in the summer I should move up from 5w-30 to 10w-30 to protect my engine from the hot weather, that the 5w-30 was twice as thin. I remain unconvinced, and unimpressed. The entrance exam for service writers is filling in as many lines on a work order as possible. Oh, and the ability to day, "oh, that's normal" with a straight face.
 
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