RLI Biosyn 0w20, 10001 mile oci, 2004 Toyota Prius

[dcoyne78]

Here is a link to a pdf of my recent analysis and previous analyses.
I have drained 1 quart (3.9 quart capacity) and refilled with Biosyn 0w20
and will resample in 5k.

http://www.divshare.com/download/2772308-448
Here is a link to the spreadsheet:
http://www.divshare.com/download/2772700-152

The data from the last couple of analyses is below but not very readable.

Code:


Oil Analyses for 2004 Prius

DA=Dyson Analysis, BL= Blackstone

All samples pulled through dipstick, oil changed

9/26/06 @50445 mi, and 6/23/07 at 65495 mi

Air Filter OEM

Oil Brand RLI RLI RLI M1 M1 M1 M1 M1 M1 M1

Oil Visc 0w20 0w20 0w20 0w20 0w20 0w20 0w20 0w20 0w20 0w20

Oil Filter EaO EaO Mobil 1 Mobil 1 Mobil 1 Mobil 1 Mobil 1 Mobil 1 Mobil 1

Lab______ DA DA DA BL DA BL BL BL BL BL

Date______ 6/25 11/5 8/21 6/23 6/12 5/4 4/3 2/11 12/23 11/13

Year______ 2007 2007 2007 2007 2007 2007 2007 2007 2006 2006

Makeup oil* NA 0.125 0 0.25 0.125 0.25 0.625 0.125 0 0

Mi on Eng_ VOA 75496 70601 65495 64456 62457 60465 57983 55358 52834

Mi on Oil_ 0 10001 5106 15040 14001 12002 10010 7528 4903 2379

Aluminum__ 2 3 3 4.5 8 4 4 4 3 2

Chromium__ 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0

Iron______ 2 8 6 12 20 12 9 8 5 1

Copper____ 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0

Lead______ 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0

Tin______ 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0

Molybdenum 10 11 92 161 100 94 88 94 91

Nickel____ 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0

Manganese_ NT NT NT 1 NT 1 0 0 0 0

Silver____ 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Titanium__ 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Potassium_ 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0

Boron_____ 12 15 42 63 43 42 40 47 51

Silicon___ 7 20 14 11 20 13 11 11 12 12

Sodium____ 11 15 13 6 12 6 6 3 5 4

Calcium___ 1973 2003 2351 2155 2456 2234 2210 2273 2220

Magnesium_ 13 13 13 27 16 13 12 11 11

Phosphorus 711 829 644 699 668 636 599 631 613

Zinc______ 1032 1011 791 1054 806 774 700 739 720

Barium____ NT NT 0 NT 0 0 0 0 0

ViscSUS210 NT NT 51.9 NT 51.9 52.0 51.5 53.9 52.2

Flashpoint 290 370 350 250 370 400 370 365 370

Fuel %____ 1.55 0.722 TR 1.76
Antifrze % 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Water %___ NT NT 0 NT 0 0 0 0 0

Insolubl % NT NT 0.3 NT 0.3 0.3 0.2 0.4 0.2

TBN______ 2.2 4.2 2.7 3.0 3.4 4.4 4.6 2.9 8.6

TAN______ 2.75 2.21 2.4

Visc(cSt100) 7.5 7.8 8.0

Visc(cSt40) 39.4 38.5 41.3

Oxidation 153 147 25

Nitration 16 12 16

H2O(KF-ppm) 565 547 505

Soot_____ 0 0 0

Visc Index 161 177 171

Sulfate Bypr 112 113 24

 

[RI_RS4]

Nice. You definitely put some serious mileage on that puppy!

Looks like lower oil consumption. A tad lower viscosity. Nice nitration and oxidation numbers. Good wear control. Fuel dilution is increasing a bit, which is why I suspect you're replacing a quart.

How's your fuel mileage with RLI when compared to M1?

 

[dcoyne78]

The fuel mileage has been a little lower, but my driving habits are different so it is hard to compare. The oil consumption on the Mobil 1 was actually due to leaving it a little low at the start of the oci (about 1/2 quart below full) and more frequent samples (about every 2500 miles). You are right that the extra quart was added to refresh the oil due to fuel dilution.

 

[bruce381]

Both oils look about same taking into account the miles.
No real difference.
I looked agian and the Mobil apears to be much lower at same miles with Fuel dilution.
bruce

 

[JohnBrowning]

Mobil looks preety darn good and is widely avialable and cheaper then RLI!

 

[dcoyne78]

Note the lead in the 15k Mobil 1 sample. Also the VOA on Mobil 1 had 1 ppm iron and Al vs 2 ppm for iron and Al in the Biosyn. Also note that Dyson Labs tends to return higher numbers for iron and Al than Blackstone, note that at 14k DA got 20 ppm for iron and 8 ppm Al while at 15k BL (Blackstone Labs)got 12 ppm iron and 4 ppm Al (5 ppm when rechecked, iron remained 12 ppm on the recheck). The BL iron numbers need to be multiplied by 1.6 and the Al numbers by about 1.8 to compare them to Dyson's Analyses. So when the 2 ppm of iron and Al (adjusting my BL VOA from 1 to 2 ppm) in the VOAs are netted out, at 10k we have:
Oil Fe Al
M1 13 5
RLI 8- 3

Also the Blackstone analysis usually misses Fuel dilution, only at 15k did Blackstone find a trace of fuel dilution, but I agree that at 10k the RLI did not look so great in that department. The RLI will hold up much better under these conditions of fuel dilution than M1, at 15k we will see. The M1 is widely available and cheaper than RLI, but I am afraid it will lead to a dirty engine under these conditions.

Dennis

 

[Pablo]

Looks like the RLI did only slightly better on Fe when you account for background noise (which can be as high as 4-5 ppm with B/S)....all the other metals are a tie. I would say drop the RLI and go with ASM 0W-20 for about 1/2 the cost delivered. At the very least it would be good to see it compared.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Are you kidding me!!! I am not going to split hair's over the 5PPM difference between the Iron and 3PPM difference on Al between the two especialy when we are talking OCI in excess of 10K miles on the OCI!!!! That is noise floor stuff..You could get that slight difference just by sampleing differences.... If you factor in cost of RLI+shipping and add in convience of not haveing to mail order oil that M1 looks even better then it aleready does!!!!In this application RLI does not make sense and is not cost effective!!! Now if RLI cost the same shipped to my door as M1 bought at Walmart or AutoZone I would change me tune...If I had an application that needed special help due to excessive fuel then I could see it but not in this Toyota or any Toyota that I am aware of... It is an excellent product but it is a soulution looking for a problem andis not cost effective in many applications that do not need this product!

 

[ekpolk]

{several posts removed}

Let's please keep the discussion civil. Disagreement and criticism are fine, but it needs to not cross the admittedly hard-to-define line between criticism and personal attack. Posts that fall into the latter category will disappear into the mod/admin dungeon, never again to see the light of day...

 

[ekpolk]

Dennis:

Nice results with either product. Clearly your not suffering any identifiable damage from using a lower-than-recommended vis oil. I've got that "pesky" extended wty, and almost 50k miles to go until it expires, so for now, I'm staying with the 30 wt products. Any thoughts on the use of 20 wt oil in this engine, despite Toyota excepting it from its general move to xw-20 oils? Gee, you're putting almost as much mileage on your Prius as I'm putting on mine...

 

[JohnBrowning]

I love that M1 Bashing already!!!! That is so funny!!! DO you realise that we have photo's of internal engine componet's taken on vechiles that have run M1 for 5,10,15 year's with hundred's of thousands of miles on them that are insanely clean??? Many of them with 10K mile OCI's! We also have simalar images of Castrol Syntec in engines running 10K OCI that are super clean! I am sure that the people on some board would buy you quote-"The M1 is widely available and cheaper than RLI, but I am afraid it will lead to a dirty engine under these conditions. " end quote nonsense but not the people on this board!!! First it was M1 cause's excessive valvetrain wear and now it is that M1 will leave an engine dirty!!! What is next?????Is M1 going to cause your our engines to self destruct!!! I am so getting tired of allt he M1 bashing since it seem's that every oil on the planet from Extra Virgin Olive Oil to AutoZOne branded oil is better oil then M1!!!Oh I almost forgot the one about M1 causeing seals to leak!!! It is a good thing we have RLI and PP to rescue us fromt he evil clutch's of the EM empire!!!Let's be realistic and objective....I mean come on when was the last time we saw an engine worn out or dirty becuase M1 did not do it's job!!!

 

[JohnBrowning]

Oh an let's not forgett that RLI is known only becuase it has done some great stuff in applications that have fuel issues!!! take away the fuel issues and what is RLI going to sell itself on????It would have to use's it's green advantage since it cannot compete on price!!All I am saying is let's not get out of hand makeing insane claims about it or bashing it's competition etc..... Let's let the product stand on it's on two feet with out all the marketing hype and funny math extrapolations etc....

 

[ekpolk]

Easy John. Don't forget that this engine is something of an outlier. It is notorious for loading up the oil with excess fuel, though Toyota denies there's a pattern. I've seen it in my UOA, and so has Dennis. I don't read his comments as M1 bashing, but rather, a possible conclusion from the evidence that's here. Of course, it's also entirely possible that Prius owners using M1 may not dirty their engines as a result.

Disclosure: Despite my still-large stock of GC, I'm presently running a fill of M1 10w-30HM in my Prius. Decided to give the stuff a try, since Mobil overtly brags about its cleaning ability, and my used Prius was slightly varnished when I bought it (at age three, with only 15k miles). Hard to tell, but I think my varnish is actually lightening up a little. I'll take photos at the end (limited value, since it'll be only through the filler), and we'll see.

 

[buster]

I look at it this way:

RLI - Great high performance oil/USA made/nice small private company willing to custom formulate. Tough to beat that.

M1 - $5qt/performs well/could be better but works very good in most applications.

Instead of comparing the two and finding faults, look at the positives each offer. I'm glad to see more RLI reports come in showing it's long drain capability. I also like the renewable aspect of this product for many reasons. I have a car that simply does not call for any fancy oil, or I would have given it a shot.

Comparing the Fe levels is just ABSURD to me and I'd call this report a wash.

 

[JAG]

ekpolk, I didn't attack, I tried to help the OP. My opinion, which I have 100% certainty on about it's agreement with reality, is just so foul to some people on BITOG that they cannot tolerate it to be on BITOG. Hopefully that will change sometime.

 

[RI_RS4]

I'm sorry, boys, I fail to see any bashing of M1, only a comparison of data that Dennis reports. Seems to me that a few people are way too sensitive.

First, I'll repeat what I've said several times in other threads. IMO, there is a difference in the results between the two oils in this application. IMO it is not in the noise, and I believe with subsequent UOA and OCI it will remain so. I personally do not see the variability in analysis results that some of you seem to. It may be my sampling techniques. It may also be the lab. But for iron, my results are repeatable within about +/- 1 ppm, as best I've been able to tell, and possibly better, using Terry's contract lab.

Second, there are certainly issues with M1 in some applications and oil types. That's not bashing. Oil overheating, for one, and high iron wear, for another, and excessive consumption over time, have been reported in some engines. In others, the darn stuff works famously.

Third, whether or not RLI BioSyn makes sense in Dennis's Prius is an entirely different matter. From a cost/benefit analysis point of view, it may not make sense at all. It's a reasonable conclusion that the difference between 20 ppm/15K and 8 ppm/10K is not significant, even if it is real, and that the vehicle life will not be impacted. However, this type of conclusion is highly dependent upon where the wear occurs. If it's cylinder walls, then who cares. If it's a bearing, then quite possibly it could be important. It also depends on how efficient the filter is in removing wear particles. It may very well be that low numbers in this engine are due to more effective filtering, not lower actual wear.

Finally, for Dennis, maybe the main concern is piece of mind. Less wear == more confidence in the engine over time. He'll be at 100K miles on the engine next year, and at 200K in 4 more, at the rate he's driving. Seems to me that an extra $30 for BioSyn over 15K miles might be worth the piece of mind.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
I would say drop the RLI and go with ASM 0W-20 for about 1/2 the cost delivered. At the very least it would be good to see it compared.


I have been notified that what I wrote is not correct. First let me say I was going by my pricing of RLI, which I thought to be $12/qt. It's really $11.21/qt. Amsoil PC is $6. So you can see where I got the "about 1/2 the cost delivered."

If you are a PC it would cost you $12.80 to have one quart of Amsoil ASM 0-20 delivered. If you bought 1 qt of RLI 0W-20 it would be about $20-$24 delivered (2 days $13, 7 days $9) Again, you can see where I got the "about 1/2 the cost delivered."

No one buys and ships one quart of oil and not everyone is a PC, so that's a bit weird. Let's compare 1 gallon at normal retail, worst case for Amsoil.

RLI $34.96 gallon + $15.50 for shipping 7 days (best case USPS, actual 2 days is $23 for shipping) $50 minimum for the RLI.

And worst case ASM retail $30 gallon + $8 shipping (2-3 days) for Amsoil via normal UPS from your local warehouse. $38

This would be about a 24% difference.

A gallon of Amsoil ASM 0w-20 is $23.85, PC price.

 

[Gary Allan]

I must poke in a joke here. It's only a joke. Everyone please laugh.

Yeah, but Pablo you don't understand. First you need to ship the ASM to RLI and have them add the renewable part of it. (30% for you 30% for me and 30% for Amsoil to make the oil). There's got to be something for "value added", right?

 

[dcoyne78]

Ekpolk,
My guess is that the 30 weight is recommended because Toyota knows about the fuel dilution. I have had no problems with the 20 weight and a small improvement in fuel economy. If I was still under warranty, I would stick with the recommended viscosity.

Sorry everyone,

I made a mistake in my chart, the fe for RLI should have been 6 ppm after subtracting the 2 ppm in the virgin oil (which I did for the Mobil 1 after increasing the fe by a factor of 1.6 to get 15 and then subtracting 2 to get 13. I made a similar mistake for Al forgetting to net out the 2 ppm in the VOA. So the difference at 10k miles is:

Oil Fe Al
M1 13 5
RLI 6- 1

The Blackstone or Dyson measurements could have been off, anyone aware of the reproducibility of these tests? I had read somewhere (I think the oil life study) that for iron it was 1-2 ppm. I agree that most of the other metals are a wash at 10k. I also agree that Mobil 1 is a great oil, thats why I went 15k on a single drain. I didn't realize until 14k that there was a fuel dilution issue (that's when I sent my first sample to Terry Dyson.) If there was no fuel dilution, I would stick with Mobil 1. I see a difference between the RLI and M1, though this was not intended as M1 bashing, I apologize if I offended someone my intention was to inform. Anyway I will post my 15k result and we can compare that with the 14k result from Dyson Analysis, I don't trust the 15k result from Blackstone and think the comparison needs to be between the same lab.
Dennis

 

[RI_RS4]

I generally see any difference of 2 ppm or more in iron, nickel, chromium, aluminum, lead and tin, from the lab that Terry uses, to be significant, based on the lab repeatability and sampling method that I use.