Cheap filters Good UOAs???

[Yary]

I've been doing a lot reading on BITOG on oil filters and all the discussions regarding flow and filteration and media materials and.....
So I decided to to some search in the UOA section on filters. To my surprise the cheap filters showed the best UOAs.
Fram was my biggest surprise. Unfortunately I did not see anybody mentioning which Fram they were using in their UOA reports.
SuperTech also came out with good UOA results.
Is it possible that a good quality filter is not necessarily a good choice for our cars?
Do a UOA search on your favorite oil filter and see what kind of results you get. You'll be surprised.

 

[Saturn_Fan]

Been using Super Tech filters from Wal Mart for a long time. Now I use them on my ATV. They are a decent filter for the low price. Probably would have used them on everything to this day,but I really like Purolator Pure One filters after researching them, and they can be had for a pretty low price on Amazon.com by the pair.

I have been intrigued lately by some of the really positive comments on certain Motorcraft oil filters. Something about how their anti drain back valve is top notch and the ones ending with "s" have the silicone adbv. Will be researching those as they are very cheap at Wal Mart. I have been hearing that these are simply Purloator premium clones though. If that's true then I will continue to stick with Pure One.

 

[Dyoel182]

Originally Posted By: Yary

Is it possible that a good quality filter is not necessarily a good choice for our cars?
Do a UOA search on your favorite oil filter and see what kind of results you get. You'll be surprised.


SuperTech filters may be inexpensive, but they arent cheaply made. They're Champion Labs filters which make a lot of the filters you can buy and a few of the house brands that are even cheaper.

 

[bmwtechguy]

While they may be made by Purolator, that is where most of the similarity ends. Motorcraft ones have bypass on the threaded end of the filter, which is supposed to be better. Silicone ADBV is better for keeping oil in the filter when engine is shut down. I'm thinking to stay with the AA filters for 1.50 on BOGO for oil changes up to 5-7k miles. About the best deal out there right now. Pretty close to the Purolator Premium.

 

[Gary Allan]

Yary: UOA may or may not be altered by filtration. There are thousands of particles in your oil and the UOA tends to only see them below a certain level. Your filter captures those above a certain level. There's a pretty substantial gap in between that you don't see. A PC will show more light on that, but it too has limitations in that you don't know what the particles are made of ..and how they would correspond to elements that are in the size range of the UOA detection. Ferrography offers additional data, but is expensive. I think that it could be augmented with acid digestion (at this point) and then run for normal elemental analysis for a better picture of mass loses inside the engine.

Most of it is beyond our means to use ..and in a practical sense, unnecessary in getting the needed longevity out of our engines. Hence we're left with "sensible" enhancements to move further in the direction of "ideal". Even that is tempered by sensible economics. It pays little to use a filter that costs $3-$5 more to get finer filtration if you're not going to realize $3 in avoided costs on some scale.

Saturn Fan: MotorCraft filters are assured to meet 100% of Ford's OEM specs. This may or may not happen to be the same as some PP filters on any one filter ..and may meet or exceed the spec's of the non-Ford engine that it may be used on. This is unique in the market, imo ..with maybe the exception of Wix; who appears to alter spec's where needed. The others, M1, Pure1, PP, ST, just about all of them (Amsoil included in many cases) are providing a performance level that fits many applications into a fewer set of part numbers. They're a good buy. Now whether you'll do any better in terms of avoided costs over a PP, that's up for grabs.

 

[Dyoel182]

Originally Posted By: bmwtechguy
I'm thinking to stay with the AA filters for 1.50 on BOGO for oil changes up to 5-7k miles. About the best deal out there right now. Pretty close to the Purolator Premium.


I'm just gonna stick with the Champion Labs STP and SuperTech filters since they throw them in with the autozone oil specials.

 

[ProfPS]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
... UOA may or may not be altered by filtration. ...


I have read a lot of posts regarding filtering ability of oil filters here in BITOG world and many BITOG'ers have gravitated to the higher efficiency filters. What is efficiency as it relates to oil filters? Is it filtering ability, flow rate or both? I have a feeling that it is more on the filtering side with little to no focus on flow rate.

I have a concern that too much filtering may filter smaller particles from circulating in the engine but at a cost of restricting oil flow. A piece of shale rock will filter 100% of particles but what is the flow restriction? This maybe the cause of the better UOA's with cheaper filters; filtering not as small particles with little flow restriction.

What happened to Bob's filtering pressure post? That was great because you saw the oil pressure on both sides of the oil flow through the filter: input pressure and output pressure. With that information and published micron filter rate, we were able to make the best decision. I made the switch to OE filters because I have had startup noises in past cars using PP, Wix, and NG; is the higher filtering/restricting flow filters causing a startup starvation situation that is making the noise??

If OE is not available, then I will go with middle of the road filters. My OC's do not exceed 5k.

 

[Yary]

I think there should be more focus on the flow rate. Look at the Honda oem filters. The only thing they got going is the flow rate. The media and the packaging is built very cheap. Some might argue that the biggest reason is to cut cost but I think there is more to it.
The media is probably the biggest factor in Choosing a filter. May be the trick is to have a thin media with a high surface area?

 

[Dyoel182]

If flow rate was an issue than a good filter with a bypass would be just as good for startup noise right?

 

[Yary]

Originally Posted By: Dyoel182
If flow rate was an issue than a good filter with a bypass would be just as good for startup noise right?

Theoretically yes. But how do we know that the bypass kicks in when it is suppose to?

 

[ProfPS]

What about during startup while pressure is building in the filter, oil flow is being restricted until the pressure level is at the point where oil will flow through the filter media?? There has to be some critical point given the design of oil filters. I see the key is to minimize the flow restriction given the viscosity: how thick/thin the oil is which is temperature, grade, oil Grp, and addpack related. It is a delicate balance between flow and filtering.

 

[Spector]

Yary, I have been saying that oil filters do little to prolong the life of an engine for a long time now, flow is the key and UOA basically shows no difference in the brand used or the media used etc. Perhaps someday, like many fuel filters placed in the gas tanks, they will be there for life and will not need changing. OCI have slowly crept up in mileage but the filters, still in the dark ages as to recommended change intervals

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
What happened to Bob's filtering pressure post? That was great because you saw the oil pressure on both sides of the oil flow through the filter: input pressure and output pressure.


Bob's filter pressure test had some flaws in it. He applied 40 psi and measured the pressure drop into an engine. He had all kinds of PSID.

If he had regulated flow to the same downstream pressure and then read the elevation, then you may have gleaned something from it. As it was, with the pressure differentials that he got, the oil pump had to be in relief. You were reading bypass valve settings.

The concept of "flow potential" is so out of whack with reality that I really can't believe that so many perseverate on it to this extent.

 

[hi-miler]

My mechanic friend told me that oil filters are in relief mode most of the time and are in reality a bypass filter anyway.
Is he right?
Where do I find information to prove one way or the other?
Does Amsoil have any flow numbers published showing how much better their filters flow as compared to the competition?
Is all this just a subjective discussion?
Steve

 

[BarkerMan]

We run stainless steel ff oil filters with no bypass valve on the dyno and record pressure. We get spikes on startup but after that we get no indication that the pressure rises to the point of popping a ff filter's bypass valve. If you change your oil on some kind of reasonable schedule the bypass valve's only job is to protect the filter from blowing out the can. Cold weather is a good reason to run thin oil and a ff filter with a thick can. We have built cold weather packages and run engines in a freezer at 0F and 32F and the bypass valve earns it's keep until the oil gets warmed up. We built a cold weather generator that had to be hand started at 0F within 120 seconds. It has a remote dual ff filter that is completely bypassed until the oil hits 40F. Having the filters bypassed made the pulling easer.

 

[Dyoel182]

Originally Posted By: Yary
Theoretically yes. But how do we know that the bypass kicks in when it is suppose to?


You have to trust it just like you have to trust the piece of metal in the OEM filter.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: hi-miler
My mechanic friend told me that oil filters are in relief mode most of the time and are in reality a bypass filter anyway.
Is he right?
Where do I find information to prove one way or the other?
Does Amsoil have any flow numbers published showing how much better their filters flow as compared to the competition?
Is all this just a subjective discussion?
Steve


You can use the manufacturers flow/PSID numbers as a comparison ONLY. Your bypass valve setting, in conjunction with your oil pump relief setting, act as "buffers" in your otherwise immutable fluid transport mechanism. They provide "slack" in an otherwise SOLID connection of barely compressible fluids.


The flow potential or the lack of it typically has little (VERY LITTLE) meaning in 99.44% of usage.

There are exceptions.

If you have an engine that has an oil flow that isn't matched with your engine's oil demand. This would mostly be limited to pushrod engines that have our traditional distributor driven pump. They can have relief limits that are more attuned to the stress limits of the drive socket or shaft.

If you're using a higher viscosity fluid or are in extreme cold temps with a higher viscosity fluid.

If you're flat shifting @ 7,0000 rpm or otherwise transitioning pump output from one state to another at a rate faster than the fluid can physically respond due to mass/momentum.


If you have a higher volume pump that has you at the ceiling 24/7 off idle, then you're in some form of variable relief at the same time. You're also at some level of variable PSID across the filter. This is the ONLY time you can possibly be at ANY appreciable level of PSID EXCEPT due to LOADING.

Essentially, if you're not in relief (at your ceiling in pressure), and the engine is fully enveloped, YOU ARE NOT IN BYPASS. IT CANNOT OCCUR.

ANY PSID that you see below the relief ceiling of the pump is VERY LOW. It may be 2psid cold (not in pump relief) to "inches of water column" when warm. It's part of the SERIES CIRCUIT that is formed between the engine resistance IN LINE with the pump and the filter. The filter MUST be a % of the TOTAL resistance of the circuit. The engine is VASTLY ...READ: INCREDIBLY HIGHER in resistance than the filter in that circuit as viewed from the filter's perspective.

I can (and probably will) go on, but if you've got a properly sized pump and a properly spec'd oil (viscwise) and aren't in some extreme condition that will alter either in terms of realized pressures, then the issue is not an issue. If it is, it's a marginal issue that is compensated by the "slack" designed into both the pump and the filter.

Really

It's hardly the monster that some have constructed here.

I'll be happy to field some specific "Yeah- fine ..but what about ??"

 

[Saturn_Fan]

Well put and informative. Much appreciated.

 

[Gary Allan]

Here are some pumps that are true exceptions to my "rules". I believe one of this style is used on the Nissan Titan V8. It shows near flat oil pressure until higher rpms. In this pump configuration, you can see altered pressures with various filters. My take, in the absence of TRUE understanding of the compensating mechanisms, is that in this case, as with other more traditional setups, the pressure indications evidence the upramp in flow.

Here is where "flow potential" may mean something to you. I'm sure that it's limited to perception (as in indication) and not an alteration in flow.

Higher efficiency with "displacement on demand" oil pumps

Another reference.

 

[GeorgeCLS]

From a lube engineer's perspective, the #1 cause of premature equipment failures is very simply "dirt". The higher level of filtration that can be achieved will extend engine and component life. Period.. As has been shared on this site, the use of a high quality synthetic filter such as the Amsoil EaO *will* extend engine life significantly. Same for the use of Mobil 1 and Pure One, to a lesser degree...
The more we can reduce abrasive components in our engine oil (which are constantly being produced by the engine itself) the longer it will last. This is not rocket science....
George Morrison, STLE CLS