Acceptable wear metal ranges
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Patman
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In the future we probably won't accept any wear metals at all, anything higher than zero will not be tolerated!
buster, my magnet whipings of M1 0W-40 vs other synthetics are not matching the trend we think we see with higher iron levels often shown in M1 UOAs. This is from the magnet inside my oil filter.
I may get Terry to run some of the fancy tests on my oils.
jsharp, all I could give in response to your question of "likelihood" are my possibly incorrect opinions. Since this is a sticky thread I am hesitant to venture into that territory. I will say I think the likelihood depends strongly on the element being measured (copper/lead/iron/aluminum vs chromium).
I may get Terry to run some of the fancy tests on my oils.
jsharp, all I could give in response to your question of "likelihood" are my possibly incorrect opinions. Since this is a sticky thread I am hesitant to venture into that territory. I will say I think the likelihood depends strongly on the element being measured (copper/lead/iron/aluminum vs chromium).
JAG, very interesting. I would love to see some more in depth testing to really get to the bottom of the M1/Fe #'s, if affordable.
Terry I couldn't agree more. As a long time M1 fan, PP is really putting the pressure on along with many other good SM rated oils.
Good stuff. Very good stuff.
Everyone (especially Terry),
Thanks for the great information!
A question for Terry (if your still looking at this):
A recent analysis posted here showed a big difference (20 ppm vs 31 PPM) in iron wear for a sample taken from the same oil change and sent to Blackstone and Dyson Labs. Is such a large difference normal? I understand that different labs use different equipment and maybe different methods, and that maybe the oil was not well mixed so that the two samples may have been very different. Or is the difference that Blackstone simply reports the atomic spectrography, but Terry includes the larger particles in his Premium package so that the two results are not comparable? Thanks for any answers that anyone can suggest.
Dennis
Thanks for the great information!
A question for Terry (if your still looking at this):
A recent analysis posted here showed a big difference (20 ppm vs 31 PPM) in iron wear for a sample taken from the same oil change and sent to Blackstone and Dyson Labs. Is such a large difference normal? I understand that different labs use different equipment and maybe different methods, and that maybe the oil was not well mixed so that the two samples may have been very different. Or is the difference that Blackstone simply reports the atomic spectrography, but Terry includes the larger particles in his Premium package so that the two results are not comparable? Thanks for any answers that anyone can suggest.
Dennis
From being around here for a couple of years it looks like we have two cams going on here. On one hand we have the DINO crowd who likes to change their oils in the 3-5k mile range and then we have the synthetic crowd that likes to extend their oil changes past the 5k mark. What we have asked many times is if it is better to change the DINO oil more frequently with shorter OCIs or take a synthetic to a more extended OCI provided that all environmental conditions are kept the same. Another question asked here is whether engines on DINO with shorter OCI’s will reach the 100k,200k,300k marks in better or worse shape than engines on longer OCIs with synthetics.
Granted there may be exceptions for turbos or sludge monsters but for the most of us we have decided to go one route or the other depending on what suits our application the best. Since I live in an apartment I like to extend my OCIs as much as I can and not worry about frequent oil changes, now does that mean that someone running DINO with shorter OCIs will not get the same results? Who knows, but the UOA section proves the current SM rated DINO oils do close the gap and in most cases the results are just about the same.
Granted there may be exceptions for turbos or sludge monsters but for the most of us we have decided to go one route or the other depending on what suits our application the best. Since I live in an apartment I like to extend my OCIs as much as I can and not worry about frequent oil changes, now does that mean that someone running DINO with shorter OCIs will not get the same results? Who knows, but the UOA section proves the current SM rated DINO oils do close the gap and in most cases the results are just about the same.
kgb007, excellent question. I'm in the same situation. If most oils are good for at least 5k miles, to get my money's worth I'd have to at least go 12k miles or more. Right now, I need the flexibility of being able to go further in case the time/conditions are not right to do an oil change. Amsoil 0w-20 is just extremely smooth and to be honest, I don't plan on changing at this point simply bc of that.
Indeed Bklabs uses inductive coupled plasma while our Premium Service uses Atomic absorption testing. There should not be that big of a difference in accuracy so it is possible that one sample has some more water condensate and while it was being shipped it ramped up the corrosion factor. The samples can be contaminated before,and after getting to the lab, and on and on. When I dive in and interpret a report from whatever lab I take all that into account and can usually give a viable reason for the variation. As a analyst you NEVER focus on one aspect of the test results. The difference is certainly no reason to discount spectrographic analysis in general. It really is an affordable way to do good non destructive testing on a unit.
Buster is correct, there is very little apparant performance difference and potential effective lenght of drain for most recent motor oils. WARNING if you use a lower quality or missmatched lube for your application the engine may seem fine for some time while it wears excessively or builds deposits that at some point crash all at once and cause serious problems.
Most SM/GF4 lubes that can stay in grade do well but will not clean, even synthetic oils cannot clean deeply.
I really wish acceptance and cost of the Biosyn oils was more broad here because they are solvent enough with excellent oxidative stability to blow away this petroleum derived ancient technology we are forced to accept.
Molakule's SF was really doing great things in that area and Renewablelube is too.
I am seeing almost NO aromatic damage in terribly fuel diluted setups running the BIOSYN HD oils and SF's test formulas were as good or better. See the 20w50 SF result in the HD engine posted at MC UOA's. It was awesome.
Buster is correct, there is very little apparant performance difference and potential effective lenght of drain for most recent motor oils. WARNING if you use a lower quality or missmatched lube for your application the engine may seem fine for some time while it wears excessively or builds deposits that at some point crash all at once and cause serious problems.
Most SM/GF4 lubes that can stay in grade do well but will not clean, even synthetic oils cannot clean deeply.
I really wish acceptance and cost of the Biosyn oils was more broad here because they are solvent enough with excellent oxidative stability to blow away this petroleum derived ancient technology we are forced to accept.
Molakule's SF was really doing great things in that area and Renewablelube is too.
I am seeing almost NO aromatic damage in terribly fuel diluted setups running the BIOSYN HD oils and SF's test formulas were as good or better. See the 20w50 SF result in the HD engine posted at MC UOA's. It was awesome.
Thanks to the group for contributing their knowledge and thoughts to a very informative, collegial, and polite discussion!
This kind of thread is what makes BITOG so great in my opinion.
This kind of thread is what makes BITOG so great in my opinion.
Thanks for the reply, Terry. Thanks everyone for great info.
Dennis
Dennis
Over the years many mechanics that actually disassemble old engines say something along the lines: “when taking apart a 150k+ mile engine which had dino all its life a noticeable ridge and considerable wear can be spotted inside the cylinder bore, yet engines that are treated with synthetics usually exhibit very little to no wear with no noticeable ridge.”
I always wondered if the excessive wear on DINOs was due to some careless driver overextending the capabilities of mineral oils, where as the synthetics could provide a greater comfort zone due to lazy drivers not wanting to do their oil changes in time.
Could maybe some of you mechanics comment on your experience with engines and the types of oils they used? I understand that maintenance histories are hard to come by on old cars, but just curious myself.
I always wondered if the excessive wear on DINOs was due to some careless driver overextending the capabilities of mineral oils, where as the synthetics could provide a greater comfort zone due to lazy drivers not wanting to do their oil changes in time.
Could maybe some of you mechanics comment on your experience with engines and the types of oils they used? I understand that maintenance histories are hard to come by on old cars, but just curious myself.
Just as an aside the BIO base oils that are listed at the BIOSYN 5w40 thread have oxidative stability exceeding mineral oils and matching and exceeding syns.. Kind of the best of both worlds. HOBS has been improved and hydraulic fluid consumers using the stuff are doing very well with them.
Remember, GRPII hydrocracked oils,Auto-RX,LubeControl,Fuel Power,FP3000, and now BIOSYN.
If I am posting this here under my name its that good.
Remember, GRPII hydrocracked oils,Auto-RX,LubeControl,Fuel Power,FP3000, and now BIOSYN.
If I am posting this here under my name its that good.
Just thought I'd jump in for a minute. I run atomic absorption instruments for a mining lab. Sometimes we double-check results from our ICP department, and we generally expect our results to be within 10% of theirs. One of us getting 20 and another getting 31 would probably result in some questioning e-mails from the boss and the sample getting re-analyzed.
""I really wish acceptance and cost of the Biosyn oils was more broad here because they are solvent enough with excellent oxidative stability to blow away this petroleum derived ancient technology we are forced to accept.""
show me ANY bio oil that will run >10,000 hours ASTM D-943 and I will pay for the test. NO WAY Jose'
bruce
show me ANY bio oil that will run >10,000 hours ASTM D-943 and I will pay for the test. NO WAY Jose'
bruce
Bio oil as in HOBO NOT full blown reacted esters NO high oleic oils will run 5,000 hours let alone >10,00o that is PAO/GPIII territory.
bruce
bruce
Bruce,
The results in my and other engines speak for themselves. You already know that this oil is 30% bio. There are some other high quality base stocks in the blend that have not been disclosed, and will not be.
Here are the results from one of my 5K UOA's. I've now run two loads of this oil in my engine for a total of 11K miles.
Oxidation - 140 (154 VOA)
Nitration - 11 (5 VOA)
TBN - 6.5 (10.3 VOA)
Fuel - 1.2% (0.31% VOA)
Viscosity Index - 170 (189 VOA)
TAN - 2.4 (1.87 VOA)
cSt - 40C 80.9
cSt - 100C 13.5
Flashpoint - 330F (390F VOA)
and as reported, wear numbers are down in the noise.
The results in my and other engines speak for themselves. You already know that this oil is 30% bio. There are some other high quality base stocks in the blend that have not been disclosed, and will not be.
Here are the results from one of my 5K UOA's. I've now run two loads of this oil in my engine for a total of 11K miles.
Oxidation - 140 (154 VOA)
Nitration - 11 (5 VOA)
TBN - 6.5 (10.3 VOA)
Fuel - 1.2% (0.31% VOA)
Viscosity Index - 170 (189 VOA)
TAN - 2.4 (1.87 VOA)
cSt - 40C 80.9
cSt - 100C 13.5
Flashpoint - 330F (390F VOA)
and as reported, wear numbers are down in the noise.
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