Best filter for preventing start up rattle???

[ZeeOSix]

Went back over this thread and looks like BlueOvalFitter always has been using Motorcraft FL-400 oil filters. He just changed the oil from conventional MS5K 5W20 to Castrol SynBlend 5W20.

One variable was changed - just the oil. If the new better flowing oil fixed the start-up rattle with the same filter, then he's found the root cause of the rattle.

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
dnewton3, I use MC FL-400s filters. My truck has 93K miles on it. Which oil would you use in it; conventional 5W20, semi-syn 5W20-5W30, synthetic 0W20, 0W30, 5W20, or 5W30?


Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Thanks for the update.

To be clear, you changed oil but not filter?

And you went to a 5W20 but what was the original oil viscosity?

I originally had MS5K 5W20 in it. I drained that and installed Castrol SynBlend 5W20 and a new MC FL-400s filter.

The MS5K was the first time ever my engine had conventional oil used in it, since I had bought it new. (6 miles when new) Currently 93K miles

 

[KCJeep]

Update: I am pleased to report the FL-400S did indeed fix my start up rattle. I had gotten to a point I didn't think any filter would, it was my last attempt. Well it worked, I gave it a good test.

Almost a month and a thousand miles, colder weather than ever, several "perfect storm" scenarios where the Jeep sat for nearly 48 hours in cold weather. No rattle, not even once! And this from a vehicle that had been making racket every third start or so before the switch.

All I changed was the filter and extended my OCI a month. It worked hurrah!

I'll start a new thread as well since this one got so long.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Update: I am pleased to report the FL-400S did indeed fix my start up rattle. I had gotten to a point I didn't think any filter would, it was my last attempt. Well it worked, I gave it a good test.

Almost a month and a thousand miles, colder weather than ever, several "perfect storm" scenarios where the Jeep sat for nearly 48 hours in cold weather. No rattle, not even once! And this from a vehicle that had been making racket every third start or so before the switch.

All I changed was the filter and extended my OCI a month. It worked hurrah!

I'll start a new thread as well since this one got so long.

Would you ever consider using a PureOne filter,being it almost the same filter as the MC FL-400s?

 

[gregoron]

Been following this thread and congrats to both of you. So I guess that FL-400S has a better ADBV as it keeps more oil above the filter. It'd be interesting to see if the bypass pressure from this new filter is different from the old one. Just trying to see if the solution was due to ADBV or bypass pressure.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Update: I am pleased to report the FL-400S did indeed fix my start up rattle. I had gotten to a point I didn't think any filter would, it was my last attempt. Well it worked, I gave it a good test.

Almost a month and a thousand miles, colder weather than ever, several "perfect storm" scenarios where the Jeep sat for nearly 48 hours in cold weather. No rattle, not even once! And this from a vehicle that had been making racket every third start or so before the switch.

All I changed was the filter and extended my OCI a month. It worked hurrah!

I'll start a new thread as well since this one got so long.

Would you ever consider using a PureOne filter,being it almost the same filter as the MC FL-400s?


I've used PureOnes, excellent filters but "almost" isn't good enough in this case as the PureOnes do give me rattle, but so does just about everything else when it's cold outside.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: gregoron
Been following this thread and congrats to both of you. So I guess that FL-400S has a better ADBV as it keeps more oil above the filter. It'd be interesting to see if the bypass pressure from this new filter is different from the old one. Just trying to see if the solution was due to ADBV or bypass pressure.


Good question. Off the top of my head I believe the FL-400s bypass is 14 psi and most filters for my Jeep are about 12. Would not think that'd be enough to make such a dramatic difference but maybe that's it. Whatever it is is works!

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Update: I am pleased to report the FL-400S did indeed fix my start up rattle. I had gotten to a point I didn't think any filter would, it was my last attempt. Well it worked, I gave it a good test.

Almost a month and a thousand miles, colder weather than ever, several "perfect storm" scenarios where the Jeep sat for nearly 48 hours in cold weather. No rattle, not even once! And this from a vehicle that had been making racket every third start or so before the switch.

All I changed was the filter and extended my OCI a month. It worked hurrah!

I'll start a new thread as well since this one got so long.

Would you ever consider using a PureOne filter,being it almost the same filter as the MC FL-400s?


I've used PureOnes, excellent filters but "almost" isn't good enough in this case as the PureOnes do give me rattle, but so does just about everything else when it's cold outside.


I have 1 MC FL-400s left and after that one was used I was thinking about trying a PureOne.But,like they say,"If it's not broke don't fix it."

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: gregoron
Been following this thread and congrats to both of you. So I guess that FL-400S has a better ADBV as it keeps more oil above the filter. It'd be interesting to see if the bypass pressure from this new filter is different from the old one. Just trying to see if the solution was due to ADBV or bypass pressure.


Good question. Off the top of my head I believe the FL-400s bypass is 14 psi and most filters for my Jeep are about 12. Would not think that'd be enough to make such a dramatic difference but maybe that's it. Whatever it is is works!

It cannot be the bypass pressure setting; think it through.

What if it were the bypass setting delta differential; we're only talking about a few PSI. The pump is capable of well over 100 PSI in most cases, even right after start up. The bypass in the filter is a delta psi; not an absolute. That delta differential is going to be usurped quickly, regardless of where is it at. Would the difference be 43 psi vs 40? Or perhaps 76 psi vs 72? Or even 100 psi vs 95? Does not matter; that differential will be QUICKLY overcome by the full pressure and volument supply of the pump.

Regarding the bypass pressures, one of two things would occurs VERY quickly. Either the delta P would nearly equalize across the media, or the relief valve. Either the oil will flow through the media, or around it via the bypass. Either way, the system will exit the filter quickly.

It is the ADBV that deals with rattle; it is to hold oil in the circuits via resisting drain back. If it fails, that is volume that must be first filled before pressure can continue downstream.

The filter bypass valve has essentially zero to do with start-up rattle in the valvetrain. The oil would either flow through the media, or around it, in very short order. Therefore, it is the ADBV that either succeeds or fails at this task.


The ADBV is a check-valve and nothing more.
The bypass valve is a pressure differential relief valve.
If the system is rattling at start up, it is due to a lack of volume of fluid. That is a failure of the ADBV to keep oil where it is desired. The pump as to fill that void, before the rattle will stop. The pump will overcome the delta-P one way or the other, very quickly.

 

[KCJeep]

Makes sense, for whatever reason the FL-400s ADBV is working better than most anything else for me. Guess I don't need to know the reason, just that it works!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3

It cannot be the bypass pressure setting; think it through.

What if it were the bypass setting delta differential; we're only talking about a few PSI. The pump is capable of well over 100 PSI in most cases, even right after start up. The bypass in the filter is a delta psi; not an absolute. That delta differential is going to be usurped quickly, regardless of where is it at. Would the difference be 43 psi vs 40? Or perhaps 76 psi vs 72? Or even 100 psi vs 95? Does not matter; that differential will be QUICKLY overcome by the full pressure and volume supply of the pump.


Just to add some info about cold oil flow, oil pump pressure relief valve and filter bypass valve operation.

The delta P across the filter is dependent on the oil viscosity and the oil flow rate. With cold oil at start-up, the oil pump's output pressure will be pretty high. In fact, it may make the oil pump's pressure relief valve operate to keep the oil pressure at the max pressure of the pump's pressure relief valve setting (typically 80 ~ 90 PSI).

But also, the oil pump's volumetric output will be decreased to the oil filter if the pump's pressure relief valve starts kicking in and shunting oil back to the sump. This cut in volumetric flow will also cut back the delta P across the filter at cold start-up. Of course, if someone fired up a cold engine and revved it to 4000+ RPM the delta P across the filter may be much higher (because the pump can't shunt excess oil to the sump), and the filter's bypass valve would start to open up because of a drastic surge of cold oil. That's one reason I always warm my engine up some and drive off very mellow until the oil warms up some.

My theory is, if the oil pump can regulate it's output pressure to the pressure relief pressure setting (say 80 psi), then even with cold oil the delta P across a clean filter will really not be very significant ... maybe 5~8 PSI. Most filter pressure bypass valves are set to 10 ~ 16 PSI.

Anyway, bottom line is that I agree that the cause of engine start-up rattle isn't due to the bypass valve (unless it wasn't functioning when it should be and the filter was pretty clogged up). If the bypass valve does open, it's still allowing oil to get to the engine, along with whatever flow is also going through the media at the bypass delta P across the media.

 

[gregoron]

Learned a lot here. Yes, it makes sense that it is the ADBV that most likely worked in this case.

 

[Vikas]

dnewton,

You are wrong to bring science in to this discussion. Participants here are all religious fanatics and adhere to Church of Lube & Filter

Seriously, couple of your replies were extremely lucid and very well thought out but I think you are wasting your energy on us morons here

- Vikas

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Makes sense, for whatever reason the FL-400s ADBV is working better than most anything else for me. Guess I don't need to know the reason, just that it works!

Here,here! I agree!

In my case,I think the filter had a bad ADBV. Sure,that was the 1st time I ever used conventional oil,but after all the research and answers here I think the filter was the culprit.
My next OCI will be MS5K oil.I'm going to make sure it was not the oil. As for now,everything is good.

To be continued in 6 months or 5K miles.

 

[dnewton3]

Excellent relevation, BlueOval.

As I said many pages back, we really cannot take one experience/event and call it "science". I said before, while not any assurance, you would have to rule out a singular bad product before you could declare any "success" with a different product.

Which is why I say that to PROVE any component was a success in eliminating the rattle, you must be able to cause and stop the rattle with the installation and replacement of alternative filters. If you can initiate and eliminate the rattle with one brand/type of filter, then you have discovered your answer. If not, then it was much more like to have been a singular bad product in a unique incident, and nothing more.

As part of a fundemental quality control exercise, you must be able to control the variable and be able to replicate the results, with independent manipulation. If you can, you have found the root cause; it not, it's just total coincidence.

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

It cannot be the bypass pressure setting; think it through.

What if it were the bypass setting delta differential; we're only talking about a few PSI. The pump is capable of well over 100 PSI in most cases, even right after start up. The bypass in the filter is a delta psi; not an absolute. That delta differential is going to be usurped quickly, regardless of where is it at. Would the difference be 43 psi vs 40? Or perhaps 76 psi vs 72? Or even 100 psi vs 95? Does not matter; that differential will be QUICKLY overcome by the full pressure and volume supply of the pump.


Just to add some info about cold oil flow, oil pump pressure relief valve and filter bypass valve operation.

The delta P across the filter is dependent on the oil viscosity and the oil flow rate. With cold oil at start-up, the oil pump's output pressure will be pretty high. In fact, it may make the oil pump's pressure relief valve operate to keep the oil pressure at the max pressure of the pump's pressure relief valve setting (typically 80 ~ 90 PSI).

But also, the oil pump's volumetric output will be decreased to the oil filter if the pump's pressure relief valve starts kicking in and shunting oil back to the sump. This cut in volumetric flow will also cut back the delta P across the filter at cold start-up. Of course, if someone fired up a cold engine and revved it to 4000+ RPM the delta P across the filter may be much higher (because the pump can't shunt excess oil to the sump), and the filter's bypass valve would start to open up because of a drastic surge of cold oil. That's one reason I always warm my engine up some and drive off very mellow until the oil warms up some.

My theory is, if the oil pump can regulate it's output pressure to the pressure relief pressure setting (say 80 psi), then even with cold oil the delta P across a clean filter will really not be very significant ... maybe 5~8 PSI. Most filter pressure bypass valves are set to 10 ~ 16 PSI.

Anyway, bottom line is that I agree that the cause of engine start-up rattle isn't due to the bypass valve (unless it wasn't functioning when it should be and the filter was pretty clogged up). If the bypass valve does open, it's still allowing oil to get to the engine, along with whatever flow is also going through the media at the bypass delta P across the media.



Yes - I agree with this concept too.

I should have been more clear; I was talking about the filter bypass and not the pump bypass, which are different and have two distinct tasks.

My comments were geared to the filter bypass. In short, when the filter does receive pressure, the pressure is going to either go through the media, or around the media, very quickly. That is the very task the filter bypass has, and it is there to protect both the media (from destruction) and the engine (from starving for oil). Start up rattle is not due to filter bypass issues. It is either ADBV failure, or very think oil that has not yet supplied flow to the whole system.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Start up rattle is not due to filter bypass issues. It is either ADBV failure, or very thick oil that has not yet supplied flow to the whole system.


This is why,in my case,I had to do the process of elimination. If both are the culprit then the startup rattle will be more pronounced.If someone does not have the knowledge to detect this,will their engine eventually bite the dust? Most engine wear occurs at startup so this would lead me to believe the early demise of an engine.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3

I should have been more clear; I was talking about the filter bypass and not the pump bypass, which are different and have two distinct tasks.


Yes, I know. That's why I elaborated a bit more to describe what goes on in the entire oiling system, including the oil pump's pressure regulator valve which does have a bearing on what kind of maximum delta-P will be seen across the filter media due to oil flow volume.

Originally Posted By: dnewton3

My comments were geared to the filter bypass. In short, when the filter does receive pressure, the pressure is going to either go through the media, or around the media, very quickly.


Actually, the oil will flow through the media AND the bypass valve simultaneously when it opens. The only time ALL the oil would flow through the bypass valve is when the media is entirely clogged up and can't flow at all.

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
That is the very task the filter bypass has, and it is there to protect both the media (from destruction) and the engine (from starving for oil). Start up rattle is not due to filter bypass issues. It is either ADBV failure, or very thick oil that has not yet supplied flow to the whole system.


Yep ... +1.

 

[dnewton3]

I thank you; your clarifications perhaps better elaborated my points.

Thanks Zee.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Makes sense, for whatever reason the FL-400s ADBV is working better than most anything else for me. Guess I don't need to know the reason, just that it works!

KC-does your filter mount sideways on an adapter (like my '98 XJ)? I wonder if that makes them a lot more picky, and prone to weirdness like parking nose up or down on a hill making a difference.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Makes sense, for whatever reason the FL-400s ADBV is working better than most anything else for me. Guess I don't need to know the reason, just that it works!

KC-does your filter mount sideways on an adapter (like my '98 XJ)? I wonder if that makes them a lot more picky, and prone to weirdness like parking nose up or down on a hill making a difference.


Yes, it sits perfectly horizontal.