OE or Fel Pro head gasket part?

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Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Also, I've heard that you have to be very careful not to damage the mating surface beyond 'cleaning' it unless there was a need to re-machine the block???


Yeah, this is the usual caution about shallow scratches made with steel scrapers or scotch-brite creating leak paths. I've never seen a leak in the real world caused by such scratches, but it sounds like a good caution to heed just in case. If you are a fan of scotch-brite discs, pay attention to the direction the scratch marks will go or just use the non-scratching rubber discs as a safer alternative.
 
Re-post from the UOA thread, but posting here to get more technical input. Can a Civic be leaking coolant into the oil from a headgasket leak and it not cause compression to go down?

I'm loosing coolant and it's getting into the oil. The only other places might be the oil cooler or some crazy theory on an IACV weeping in some strange space fabric rip...I digress.

UPDATE:

Awkward twist.

A friend that agreed to do the job initially did some compression testing and cooling system pressure testing. The results?

Compression is good across all 4 cylinders, dry and wet compression.

The cooling system holds about 17 psi strong without backing off.

...to top it all off here is the valve-train (first time I've seen it since owning the car mind you, I'm not a mechanic):

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7465/1004056k.jpg

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6840/1004055m.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5498/1004057.jpg

so.......

Original head or replacement? At least the valve-train? He says it looks too clean for 260k miles. I've only had it for 35,000 miles or so; almost 3 years. The PO claims they did the 3,000 religious oil changes, etc.

So, I don't know what to do. My buddy advised holding off, he was willing to do the job but hesitant b/c of the rest of the data not making sense.

To be fair, this oil analysis was the first with confirmed coolant. Mistake? I do have consumption now that I didn't have before and I don't see it leaking externally(much, I did recently however have a hose that started leaking slightly)...

Does this mean it's the oil cooler? Here's a pic below of the design:

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13sr301_e13.png

It's about $230 without replacing the center bolt b4 shipping. Not sure about local price on dealers.

To top it all off, now I have the parts for the HG job that might not need to be done. However, with the pics of the valve area...I don't know what to think.

Not sure how to test the oil cooler aside from just removing and replacing. (Maybe run fluid through the cooling passage with it removed from the vehicle and see if it seeps into the oil galleries?)

Lastly, aside from 'block testing' with a kit, he suggested getting the coolant analyzed. Personally, I don't know why the difference. I'd just as soon rent a block-tester kit and confirm if there are combustion gasses in the cooling system. If that's true, and I have coolant getting into the oil where else OTHER than the hg? Could the block/head be warped or cracked from an overheat by the PO that is just now showing? AFTER 3 years of owning with no symptoms and I've never had it overheat?

My head is spinning. Please help. I can't fix both financially, though I suppose pulling the head may confirm if the block/head is warped or cracked at least. Thus, replace those parts anyway since I've got the replacements on hand...and bite the bullet if I need to replace the oil cooler later, changing the oil a bit sooner than I have been(3,000 max until coolant is gone).

LINK to UOA thread:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2655364&page=1

ADDED: So, perhaps take a whiff at the intake past the throttle plate to smell for coolant or just remove the IACV and put water through the cooling passages to see if it leaks into the unit itself...I don't think I'd be able to visually see coolant getting into the oil by removing the oil cooler, since it's a sealed piece and costs $230+ to replace.

So, that's a 'throw a part at it' as well at this point. This is very confusing. Some Civic owners have said they have great compression and coolant loss via other means relative to the head gasket still.
 
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So the oil cooler lines run through the radiator? And you think those passages are letting coolant into the oil?

It's a new radiator right?

I would check for exhaust gasses in the coolant. If you can rent a block tester kit, do it, if not, they're not that expensive to buy.

Or you can fill the radiator to the top, with the cap off, and look for bubbles.

My '01 Civic HG failed at 225k miles,
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The oil cooler is a 'sandwiched' adapter where the oil filter mounts. Coolant from the water pump's main pipe has a branch from it towards the oil filter, which the coolant then passes around to cool oil as it enters the oil filter. I believe in my car this actually acts as a way to 'warm' the oil. Almost like an oil temp control device for both heating and cooling depending on conditions.

Anyway, there is then a 2nd pipe which feeds back to the line to the radiator. It's "possible" since that is a place where oil and coolant passes each other. All of this at the oil filter location. It's a miniature radiator, all stock.
 
Is there oil in the coolant?

On some VWs, there is a coolant exchanger on the oil filter very similar to your car. When if fails, it seems much more common that you discover it from oil in the coolant. Oil pressure is higher than the pressure in the cooling system, generally, so oil leaks into the coolant more than the coolant getting into the oil.

I would hesitate to replace the HG when there are other options to check first, but what do I know.

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim

Anyway, there is then a 2nd pipe which feeds back to the line to the radiator. It's "possible" since that is a place where oil and coolant passes each other. All of this at the oil filter location. It's a miniature radiator, all stock.


I'm not familiar with this model, but generally this is a transmission cooler line going to the radiator, not an engine oil line.

I guess I don't even know if your car is a manual or automatic, so I'm not basing this on anything except what is common on automatic equipped cars.
 
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^There is coolant entering the engine some, as of the last used oil analysis I linked above, here it is again:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2655364&page=1

There 'may' be oil getting into the cooling system. The coolant recently started consuming and there are no obvious external leaks, plus I know I've got it entering internally somewhere in the cooling system.

Yes, the car is a manual transmission. The ATF cooling lines from the replacement radiators(not sure if OE part came with this for my car) are just not in use with no A/T fluid pump to cycle there, the lines stand open.

Here is a picture of the oil cooler(where the oil filter mounts, see part 12):

13sr301_e13.png


Notice, the two lines? The one on the left is nearest the water pump itself and the top most line is feeding further 'down stream' returning to engine's 'primary' cooling system on it's way back to the radiator.

I saw a picture last night of some stock OE cooler of similar model/year/era etc off of a Honda, and it was cut in half. You could see where there are fins enclosed in this mount/bolt on oil cooler. It basically just transfers heat right at this source. I can see what you mean by getting oil in the cooling system instead.

However, I'm sure as the car sits over night etc, there is always the chance for 'cross contamination'.

And IIRC correctly, the 'overflow tank'; which is non-pressurized, once it gets empty it tends to be 'oily' in appearance at the bottom. This is after I've cleaned it twice since it gets dry first before I lose coolant at the radiator/enclosed part of the cooling system itself. So, how is oil residue getting in at 'that' point? The overflow? When, you'd figure any potential grime like substance from the cooling system would be settled somewhere lower in the system, not forced out of the highest point.

PS: To be clear, no visible coolant leaks externally. I did have an upper hose that started to go and I now have signs of a crack at the radiator neck(plastic radiator) 'starting' to form. It was only recently that consumption increased to the point that not only would the overflow not keep the coolant BUT it always would get low fast enough to drop from the radiator cap. I'm guessing around 1 quart of loss per 1,000 miles. That is just a guess.

Lastly, I suppose it would not hurt to check for 'combustion leaks' into the cooling system.

ADDED: Here is what an oil cooler from a similar style looks like cut open.

http://honda-tech.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=272092&stc=1&d=1337358645
 
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim

However, I'm sure as the car sits over night etc, there is always the chance for 'cross contamination'.


Yes, there would be contamination both ways. What I'm getting at is that I suspect if this part was faulty you'd notice quite a bit of oil in the coolant. On VW's, lots of oil in the coolant is a sign that the oil/coolant heat exchanger has probably failed.

But again, I'm not familiar with your model, so I don't know if I'm on the right track.
 
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Well, it's simple. Rule out all the impossible; and the remaining, however unlikely, is probably the explicable truth.

There are only so many cross-over points that I'm aware of, even the IACV which mounts onto the Intake Manifold just behind the throttle plate has a cooling passage. Ironically, the IACV has been giving me fits, but I'm willing to let it slide until I can keep air out of the cooling system(leak = re-introduction of air which has lead to bad cold starts once the system gets low enough). So, there is this plate on the IACV which separates in theory any coolant from getting into the engine. How likely is 'that' to have some how corroded? You know? So, to me it's more likely the head gasket in some form/fashion; even without compression issues to the points its weeping or ever so slightly has a leak path; OR it's the oil cooler. I just don't know enough about other entry points.

So, I'm looking over the FSM and studying visually all of my app's cooling system.

Lastly, here are two pics of the block and the head to see the relative cooling passages for my block.

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13sr301_e14.png

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/13sr301_e1001.png
 
Originally Posted By: hypervish
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
http://www.ericthecarguy.com/forum/forums.aspx?id=7

You might want to ask about any questions regarding your civic on that forum. Eric, who runs that forum, is an ASE/Honda master tech and has probably taken apart and repaired Honda D15s a thousand times.


X2, Eric, definitely knows his way around Honda's. I'd certainly post on his forum.


Thanks guys. I actually do have a thread there that I marked as answered, I'm hbvx over there.
grin2.gif


It's like page 3 now. Waiting on Eric to respond. I thought it was the hg for sure, but it's more up in the air now.

I wonder if the oil cooler can truly bleed internally? Also, I noticed there are these two welded together plasic pieces of hose routing. One is for the valve cover to air intake prior to the throttle body and the other is a continuation of the coolant line 'from' the IACV to the block's cooling jacket. Could this have a leak internally, just getting in ever so slightly? I'll be pulling the IACV and this 'joint' plastic piping off to see if there are leaks from cooling passage into the other.

Otherwise, it's the oil cooler and the headgasket(or head/block) AFAIK.
 
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Where could there be a leak in the cooling system that would not reveal much of a pressure drop; if any, when the system is pressurized?
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